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May 17 new
(quote) Dave-915458 said: Thank you Gary. I actually accept all of your views. However, I think we disagree in our understanding of the founding principles of this nation.

The founders of this nation set out to establish the worlds first truly secular state. As long as you did not directly affect someone elses life or property, you had all the freedom you wanted. This means freedom even to do something immoral. I think gay marriage is a freedom that is in accordance with this principle and hence should be legal. (though completely immoral.)

My actual problem with all of this criticism is that people do not place the blame where it is actually due, namely: A secular nation state like the USA cannot exist without corruption of its morals. This is not because of some crazy liberal judge or a lawmaker. This is built into the very foundation of this country.
There is nothing in the historical record that indicates that the founding fathers set out to establish a truly secular state.

What they did not want was a State Religion. That does not mean or imply a secular, It does imply and mean that the state would not impose a particular religion on the population nor that the state would endorse any particular religion.

Most of the founders believed in God. They are the ones who started all sessions of the legislature with prayer. They created chaplains to serve the armed forces, etc., etc., etc.

If you had not noticed the Declaration of Independence acknowledges that God endows us with inalienable rights.

May 17 new
Gay marriage is wrong,plain and simple,there is not a reason for it in the natural or the so called state world.We people always want to justify their behavior,an get laws to the do it without remorse,as long there is folks who want to get elected,they will do anything for this,even selling their soul to the enemy.If God wanted to create 2 men or 2 women only,He would have done so an we will be not having this conversation at all,but in time we all will be judged an is not escaping from that.God bless.
May 17 new
I think the breakdown of the American family and marriage has nothing to do with gays, but with alcohol, drugs, unfaithfulness, selfishness and lack of a spiritual life. A very small percent of Americans are gay, most are straight.. and in this group of people, fewer people are marrying and staying married. I don't think banning gay marriages will have any affect on the divorce rate, the number of people who remain unmarried and the lack of attention some children get. The sanctity of marriage, imho, is not damaged as much by a couple gay people who wish to marry as by a culture that condones and encourages casual sex, lack of commitments and no spiritual life.
May 18 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: There is nothing in the historical record that indicates that the founding fathers set out to establish a truly secular state.

What they did not want was a State Religion. That does not mean or imply a secular, It does imply and mean that the state would not impose a particular religion on the population nor that the state would endorse any particular religion.

Most of the founders believed in God. They are the ones who started all sessions of the legislature with prayer. They created chaplains to serve the armed forces, etc., etc., etc.

If you had not noticed the Declaration of Independence acknowledges that God endows us with inalienable rights.

Paul, I am curious what you think is the difference between a secular state, and one without a State Religion. I thought that they were the same. It is possible I might be using the wrong term here. Also, by the word secular, I did not mean Atheist. However the result of implementing a secular state is that it leads to Atheism.

I am curious what evidence is there that any of the important founders where Christian. To my understanding almost all of them were either Deists or Masons or both: George Washington (Master Mason) Thomas Jefferson (Deist with Masonic connections), Benjamin Franklin (Grand Master Mason) James Madison (Possibly a Mason) etc. In the thousands of letters written by Washington, the name Jesus Christ never appears. He instead only uses non-Providential Deistic terms like the Almighty Being who rules the universe, the invisible Hand, the benign Parent of the Human Race. Washington even swore his presidential oath on the Masonic Bible, consecrated the Capitol according to a Masonic ritual, had a Masonic funeral, and you can view his Masonic square today in the Capitol. You need to realize that at the time of the Founders, Atheism was regarded as abominable. D'Holbach, the first truly Atheistic philosopher lived about that time. I am sure if this Atheism was more acceptable the founders would have been more openly Atheist.



It is possible Paul that you know more than me and I am open to changing my views. However, I am curious to know where I am wrong.
May 18 new
(quote) Dave-915458 said: Paul, I am curious what you think is the difference between a secular state, and one without a State Religion. I thought that they were the same. It is possible I might be using the wrong term here. Also, by the word secular, I did not mean Atheist. However the result of implementing a secular state is that it leads to Atheism.

I am curious what evidence is there that any of the important founders where Christian. To my understanding almost all of them were either Deists or Masons or both: George Washington (Master Mason) Thomas Jefferson (Deist with Masonic connections), Benjamin Franklin (Grand Master Mason) James Madison (Possibly a Mason) etc. In the thousands of letters written by Washington, the name Jesus Christ never appears. He instead only uses non-Providential Deistic terms like the Almighty Being who rules the universe, the invisible Hand, the benign Parent of the Human Race. Washington even swore his presidential oath on the Masonic Bible, consecrated the Capitol according to a Masonic ritual, had a Masonic funeral, and you can view his Masonic square today in the Capitol. You need to realize that at the time of the Founders, Atheism was regarded as abominable. D'Holbach, the first truly Atheistic philosopher lived about that time. I am sure if this Atheism was more acceptable the founders would have been more openly Atheist.



It is possible Paul that you know more than me and I am open to changing my views. However, I am curious to know where I am wrong.
Being a Mason does not preclude someone from being a Christian. A Catholic is prohibited from being a Mason, but that does not prevent a Catholic from being one. It just puts is eternal life in grave jeopardy.

All Christians are Deists; i.e. they believe in God; but not all deists are Christian.

A secular state is one that officially denies the existence of God and acts accordingly. God has absolutely no place in any of its activities or official functions. Religion might be tolerated but only to the extent that it does not intrude into the public arena; i.e. one is free to worship privately but no outward signs are allowed anywhere in public.

There is no doubt that over the last 40 years, our country has fast been transforming itself into a secular state. But before that, and even today nominally, although no particular religion was or is promoted by the Government, it still acknowledges that God exists, many official actions, even meetings of the Houses of Congress as well as the Supreme Court are opened with a prayer; God is still called upon to witness although a person's non-belief is also honored.

Churches are still allowed to exist openly, are still given special privileges; i.e.untaxed, exempt from many laws.

It is true that lawsuits by private individuals and organizations have attacked many oif these and been supported by Courts (in many areas lawsuits have succeeded in silencing Church bells, for instance) and that government itself has begun to take direct action such as Obummer Care.

Nevertheless, religion still has a special place enshrined in the Constitution. Like all rights though, even that special status is under fierce attack now.




May 18 new
Prayers offered .
Pray for our world.They are trying to do it here too. Praying Praying theheart
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