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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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So, when asked by certain bishops to withdrawal Summorum Pontificum because the ancient Mass creates division within the Church, Pope Francis responds, "No... The Old Mass is untouchable." :-D Check it out: www.ilfoglio.it
It's in Italian and I had to use google translate to get the gist of it. If you find a better tranlsation, please share! :-)

May 28th 2013 new
Glad to hear about this, I don't know how to translate, but would like to read this.
May 28th 2013 new
I wonder if he is making a value judgment or a political observation. Regardless, there is probably no cause for concern.
May 28th 2013 new
(quote) Vanessa-964012 said: So, when asked by certain bishops to withdrawal Summorum Pontificum because the ancient Mass creates division within the Church, Pope Francis responds, "No... The Old Mass is untouchable." :-D Check it out: http://www.ilfoglio.it/soloqui/18390#.UaRs8Mgs-bY.facebook
It's in Italian and I had to use google translate to get the gist of it. If you find a better tranlsation, please share! :-)

What? Who thought these bishops this?

Perhaps the wayward practices of "cafeteria" Catholics, and apparently some bishops, causes division in the church instead???? Sedevacantists too, are "cafeteria" Catholics in my opinion who excommunicate themselves by refusing to acknowledge the successor of Peter.

The Tridentine Mass is unifying and one continuity link for the post-Vatican II era to that of Christ. Why break the connection? The papal bull of St Pius V infallibly proclaims that the Tridentine Mass is never to be abrogated. It will be celebrated in perpetuity until He comes!

To the pope's reply: Long Live Pope Francis for putting it most simply and Pope -Emeritus Benedict XVI for making this point clear in Summorum Pontificum!

Viva il Papa!!!!
May 28th 2013 new
Vanessa,

I checked your link out... and it's more complicated in what he said... we may be jumping the gun, but I am confident that the Immemorial Mass will continue to stand.

I do like your enthusiasm, though :)
May 29th 2013 new
(quote) John-971967 said: What? Who thought these bishops this?

Perhaps the wayward practices of "cafeteria" Catholics, and apparently some bishops, causes division in the church instead???? Sedevacantists too, are "cafeteria" Catholics in my opinion who excommunicate themselves by refusing to acknowledge the successor of Peter.

The Tridentine Mass is unifying and one continuity link for the post-Vatican II era to that of Christ. Why break the connection? The papal bull of St Pius V infallibly proclaims that the Tridentine Mass is never to be abrogated. It will be celebrated in perpetuity until He comes!

To the pope's reply: Long Live Pope Francis for putting it most simply and Pope -Emeritus Benedict XVI for making this point clear in Summorum Pontificum!

Viva il Papa!!!!
No Pope can bind any future Pope on anything dealing with disciplines. The form of the Mass is a discipline.

Ergo Pope Pius V's proclamation that the Tridentine mass is never to be abrogated has no coverage under infallibility.

Any Pope can change the form of the mass if they so wish, as long as the essential parts are there. If he wishes, Pope Francis could suppress the Tridentine Mass without any infallible pronouncement being violated..

It is, of course, ridiculous to have two forms of the Mass existing in a Rite at the same time. For no other reason that it causes unnecessary divisions within the Church between those who prefer one or the other, as we can see here in these forums. That is especially true at a time in the Church when the laity (as well as a lot of the clergy) are so poorly trained in the faith.
May 29th 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: No Pope can bind any future Pope on anything dealing with disciplines. The form of the Mass is a discipline.

Ergo Pope Pius V's proclamation that the Tridentine mass is never to be abrogated has no coverage under infallibility.

Any Pope can change the form of the mass if they so wish, as long as the essential parts are there. If he wishes, Pope Francis could suppress the Tridentine Mass without any infallible pronouncement being violated..

It is, of course, ridiculous to have two forms of the Mass existing in a Rite at the same time. For no other reason that it causes unnecessary divisions within the Church between those who prefer one or the other, as we can see here in these forums. That is especially true at a time in the Church when the laity (as well as a lot of the clergy) are so poorly trained in the faith.
My Dear Sir,

Ergo not!

Yes the FORM of the Mass is a discipline. But the MASS is not just about form; it's not just about an organized get together of a Catholic community. So your premise is flawed. Hence all matters would need to be adressed, before a pope would dare touch the Tridentine Mass. Pope St Pius V's proclamation makes that Mass immemorial; anyone that messes with it does so under pains of anathema (please look up the depth of meaning of that word in case you may have frgotten), this includes subsequent popes. His infallible statement covers those matters that are about MUCH MORE than just discipline.

But let's think about this "discipline" you speak of. You are a man of greater years than I, thus you surely remember the days of just one Rite, and the Tridentine Mass, in that Roman Catholic Rite. If it is ridiculous to have more than one form in one Rite of the Church, than how is it that Pope Paul VI would be moved by the Holy Spirit to approve a second form, the Novus Ordo? After all, which came first? Could no one then say: "how ridiculous for the Novus Ordo!" if using your logic? Was in fact Pope Paul VI moved by the Holy Spirit, or was it someone else?

Vatican II did not sanction a new "form" of Mass as many think these days. They are simply misinformed, and those that truly know the facts, well they lie for a different agenda when they say as such. The Novus Ordo was concocted by Bugnini and a small band of theologians and those of other faiths via the ICEL, and foisted on Pope Paul VI. Shortly afterwards Bugnini was exiled to Iraq. But Bugnini and his cronies, did not succeed fully with their designs, nevertheless. The battle is about souls.

Ok, let's look at it from yet another perspective. Before the Tridentine Mass, were there not many "forms" of Mass that existed concurrently? What would you say about those times and more than one form in the Church? Ridiculous?! None of those "forms" are going away as long as there are faithful desiring them. Each is edifying for the soul.

With the institution of the Tridentine Mass, the Council of Trent in Union with Pope St Pius V left alone all other FORMS that were more than 250 years old, specifically because each bypassed the protestantizing heresies that abounded due to Luther's false teachings, and of those that followed, corrupting the west. Luther died before the Council of Trent concluded. On his deathbed he lamented what he put into motion with a statement in effect like this: there are as many churches (faiths) as there are heads. He died in disillusionment. Sad. How many protestant churches are there in the world today? I think I saw a number in excess of 41,000 floating around. That may be formally true, but informally Luther is probably closer to the truth.

And yet again, let's look at it in today's terms...We have many Rites in the Church universal, all in FULL communion with one another. With your logic, extended, would it not follow that the differences in the different Rites must be divisive? Yet it's not, is it? It's actually showing unity through PROPERLY FORMED diversity. As for me, for example, I love the Byzantine Rite, for different reasons, but am not attached to it as much.

So, would you still maintain your " it's ridiculous" assertion?

Lastly lets look at the "form" and more importantly the "discipline" of the Novus Ordo, standing alone. For one arguing for just one form? Where is this discipline within it, across the globe? Do you recall the chaos that followed after it was implemented in so many "experimental" forms. What resulted, but mass exodus? I dare to say it: I have well documented (as have many others) the sheer lunacy with many "experiments" with it that ensued. Some are still not corrected to this day!

Thank heaven we still have the Tridentine Mass. It is a bastion against those who wish to throw away all that is Catholic. It's form is Catholic to the core! By that I mean Christ.

Division is not being casued by those that are Traditionalist. They offer a depth to the Church that in large part many of it's members have temporarily lost touch with. The sense of the Sacred is being restored, in one way, by those who prefer the Tridentine Mass, for the benefit of the entire Church. Traditionalist implies solid, therefore unitive.

Why don't the OTHERS of the other "form" and "discipline" want to be?

It is humbling to see Trads suffer through so much, but it's for the greater glory of God. At the same time, it is a pure joy to see Catholics returning!!! The Tridentine Mass will save France, and then all of Europe.

One has to wonder about the motivations of those bishops who suppress the faithful's sincere and rightful wishes, by which the faithful maintain a greater affinity to Christ. Keeping it from those that are properly disposed just because of some that are not is harly a valid argument! Don't you think?
May 29th 2013 new
Dave, Vanessa,

You will be interested to get the story, behind this story. Here is the link. Apparently Pope Francis made no such statement. Rrate-caeli.blogspot.com is generally reliable, but I urge major caution on the comments to their postings.

www.rorate-caeli.blogspot.com

Anyone can comment, so those are to be taken with a heavy dose of salt, There one find protagonists, antagonists, sedevacantists, SSPX'ers, FSSP'ers (in union) as well as other Trads with a genuine love for all things Catholic.
May 29th 2013 new

Did the Pope say to resisting bishops: "Summorum will not be touched"? Not really.

No, the Pope did not say that, not even allegedly.Il Foglio today carried an article by Matteo Matzuzzi with the following title: "Francis and Latin - 'The ancient Mass is not to be touched,' the Jesuit Pope once again surprises all. The bishops from Apulia ask for the removal of Ratzinger's motu proprio. Bergoglio says no: 'both new and ancient things are worthy'."

Father Finigan has a translation of the relevant two paragraphs of the article here. However, once again an Italian news source puts words in people's lips that were not exactly there.

Matzuzzi's article was completely based on a post written by Sandro Magister for his Italian-only blog. Here is the main excerpt of Magister's post, with what the Pope supposedly said to the bishops of Apulia.

There were also indiscretions regarding the liturgy.The Archbishop of Bari, Francesco Cacucci, started it, declaring to Vatican Radio that Pope Francis had exhorted the bishops to "live the relationship with the liturgy with simplicity and without superstructures".

Then, it was the turn of the bishop of Conversano and Monopoli, Domenico Padovano, who told his own clergy that the bishops of Apulia had complained to the Pope about the work of division created within the Church by the defenders of the Mass in the ancient rite.

And how did the Pope answer him?

According to what was mentioned by Bishop Padovano, Francis exhorted him to be careful with the extremisms of certain Traditionalist groups, but also to treasure tradition and allow it to live in the Church along with innovation.

In order to better explain this last point, the Pope would have brought up his own example:

"See? They say that my Master of papal ceremonies [Guido Marini] is of a Traditionalist mold; and many, after my election, have asked me to remove him from his position and replace him. I have answered no, precisely because I myself may treasure his traditional formation, and at the same time he might take advantage of my more emancipated formation."


If the words are authentic, they are instructive about the liturgical spirit and the style of celebration of the current pope. But in what sense the bishops of Apulia have interpreted them is not certain.

Another one of them, that of Cerignola and Ascoli Satriano, Felice di Molfetta, a former president of the Liturgical Committee of the CEI [Italian Episcopal Conference], in a message to his diocese wrote among other things:

"I did not fail to rejoice with the pope for the style of celebration that he has taken up, a style inspired by the 'noble simplicity' determined by the Council, showing particular attention to the subject, about which he has not failed to give his considerations of a great theological-pastoral profile, shared by all fellow brothers who were present....

"Pope Francis, in light of certain phenomena of the recent past, regarding which not a few drifts have taken place, exhorted us bishops, referring also to some concrete examples, to live the relationship with the liturgical action, as work of God, as true believers, beyond every ceremonial triumphalism, acknowledging fully that the 'noble simplicity' of which the Council speaks is not sloppiness, but Beauty, beauty with a capital 'B'."But to enroll Pope Francis among the ranks of the Progressives also in the liturgical field is at the very least far-fetched. It does not mean, in particular, that he is hostile to the liberalization of the mass in the ancient rite, decided by Benedict XVI with the motu proprio "Summorum Pontificum" of 2007.

While it is certain the Bishop di Molfetta himself was in that year one of the most combative critics of that motu proprio, before and after its publication. He considered the mass in the ancient rite "incompatible" with the post-Conciliar one, and tried without success to make the CEI issue an interpretive note - in a restrictive sense - of Summorum Pontificum.

So, Matzuzzi's interpretation was that when the Pope allegedly told the bishops of Apulia, according to the account supposedly made by Bishop Padovano, "also to treasure tradition and allow it to live in the Church along with innovation", that Summorum would not be touched;

while according to Padovano's own alleged account, the example the Pope used to illustrate what he meant was the current pontifical liturgical style, a kind of synthesis between Msgr. Guido Marini's "traditional" mindset, and his own "emancipated" liturgical life.

The sentence reported by Magister ("Francis exhorted him to be careful with the extremisms of certain Traditionalist groups, but also to treasure tradition and allow it to live in the Church along with innovation"), was somewhat reworked in Il Foglio ("they should treasure tradition and create the necessary conditions so that tradition might be able to live alongside innovation") - the author's interpretation added to Magister's report of Padovano's supposed account.

Honestly, we never thought that Summorum would be touched, because we did not think it could be touched - not because of the character of the new Pope, but because the legal construction made by Benedict XVI is just so solid, and based on an argument that is deeply dogmatic and theological: "What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful" [Letter to Bishops, July 7, 2007]. In other words, the ancient Missal has not been abrogated because it cannot be abrogated legitimately (we are not entering here in sterile discussions on the various editions of the ancient liturgical books, the 1960-1962 editions having been established by various reasons as the paradigmatic editions). Tweaks and adjustments are one thing, wholesale obliteration (as apparently - only apparently! - Paul VI tried to do) is impossible, if the Church is to retain her marks (One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic), not only in space (for all peoples) but most importantly in time (for all generations). No wonder the most recent edition of the Denzinger includes Summorum as one of the few doctrinal texts worth quoting of the last pontificate.

___ (Informative note: According to the website of Inter Multiplices Una Vox, in all of Apulia (It. Puglia), whose bishops find the defenders of the Traditional Latin Mass to be so "divisive", there are only four locations where it is celebrated once every Sunday under the terms of Summorum Pontificum, plus one where it is celebrated every Saturday night. One of these Masses is celebrated by Msgr. Nicola Bux of Bari, one of Benedict XVI's most outspoken collaborators and defenders on matters liturgical. - Augustinus.)




May 29th 2013 new
I hesitate to throw my two cents into the thread as no doubt it will be taken out of context

However, in order that someone who is unfamiliar with the debates is not led astray by peoples personal opinions as opposed to what Catholic teaching is, I will say this: There is no need for any fear among those who attend the Tridentine Mass that it will be eliminated. Vatican II made it very extremely crystal clear that this Mass was still valid and was still a Roman Catholic Mass, and that it could continue. Vatican II also made it very extremely crystal clear that the Novus Ordo Mass was also Roman Catholic.

The problems that arise are because we as imperfect people have personal opinions that challenge and question those assertions. The Novus Ordo Mass is a Catholic Mass whether some people like that or not. The Tridentine Mass is a Catholic Mass whether some people like that or not. And Vatican II was not a conspiracy where the Catholic Church was infiltrated by people of other faiths. There was a context for Vatican II within the Church and within society as a whole. Of course, now, people are going to site conspiracy theory blogs and videos and tell me Im wrong, but I dont care. Im leaving this thread. God bless. Dove
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