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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Jun 15th 2013 new
I am not going to comment on this article, since arguments can be made both in favor or against it. I am going to ask this: if the Protestants can use our churches for their ceremonies, can the Byzantine Catholic community here in San Antonio which I worship with use a Latin church (when our group outgrows the day chapel we currently worship at)? You know, one that actually looks like a Catholic church, with an altar suitable for offering Holy Sacrifice, as opposed to looking like a Baptist or a modernist church? We seemed to run into many deadends when our group first started; yet, I read that many a Catholic church (not necessarily in my area) is often readily used for Protestant ceremonies.
Jun 15th 2013 new
A Faith purchased by the blood of martyrs over the centuries, and indeed, by the Holy One himself-that is the only Faith I accept.
Jun 15th 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: And some believe a Catholic Faith that never existed.
You make my point Paul.Thank you.It's the modern Catholics. biggrin
Jun 15th 2013 new
(quote) Chris-906154 said: They're allowing a false, blasphemous ritual of a false religion to be celebrated within a Catholic church. Basically, they've desecrated it. Just because they take out the Blessed Sacrament doesn't mean it's suddenly right. It's like hiding a cross when you're trying to rob a guy's house. 'Helping' Protestants doesn't mean supporting them in their false (and completely invalid) rites. Their 'ordinations' are nothing but words, and thus a mockery of God and the true priesthood. That isn't treating them like dirt, it's being truthful.
As a convert happily awaiting RCIA, I have to say this is not the best tack to take, and probably not the proper approach from a Catholic perspective. I certainly don't doubt your zeal or your love for God and for right doctrine, but I don't think you are drawing the (admittedly fuzzy) line in the right spot here.

I would not be okay with a Protestant ordination taking place in a Catholic church if the Blessed Sacrament were exposed -- that would be a very direct statement that what they do is equally legitimate, which would be a false statement, of course.

Going completely in the other direction and refusing them access to the cathedral would be a legitimate choice, unlike the previous one I mentioned. Legitimate, but not necessarily the only option. I am not very familiar with how Methodist churches look on the inside, so I cannot say what would be particularly striking to a Methodist walking in to a Catholic church, but perhaps God has blessed and called some of those who are allegedly ordained -- and those some will become Catholic someday! This could be a seed, a new beginning that started in a Catholic church and ends with coming home to THE Catholic Church!

You never know what exposure to Catholicism may lead a Protestant, or anyone else for that matter, to the Church.

Now, much of your language here and elsewhere on this thread is, honestly, a bit over the top, Chris. Protestantism is not "a false religion" -- it is an imperfect representation of the only religion that isn't false. There's a difference between a Protestant ordination taking place in a cathedral and, say, a pagan rite that requires animal sacrifice. That would be desecration, even if the Blessed Sacrament were removed.

What's more, the words of Thomas do not automatically apply to Protestants because there are substantive differences between what he spoke of -- non-Christian religions that do not even invoke the name of Jesus -- and what we are speaking of: Christians who invoke the name of Jesus and trust in him, hopefully in good faith, yet they are heterodox and in imperfect communion with Rome.

Now, while I do not think it is automatically wrong to allow a Protestant ceremony in a Catholic church, the fact that it involved a woman doing the ordaining does bother me since I believe that such a thing is incompatible with a genuine good faith attempt at following Jesus rightly. One can be ignorant of sacramental theology and wrongly think oneself a bishop, sure, but one cannot claim ignorance of the fact that women are not called to that vocation, but are blessed with other vocations. Only willful ignorance can lead to that. And so, perhaps refusing to allow the ceremony would have been the wiser choice.

But simply having a Protestant ceremony, in and of itself, does not profane the church.

Does this count as committing the sin of scandal? That depends. Scandal is a very unusual sin in that it only manifests based on how others react to a behavior rather than to one's behavior itself. Will the parishioners of Roman Catholic Co-Cathedral of the Sacred Heart take this as an endorsement of women's ordination? If so, then scandal. But if it is clear to all reasonable people that this was an attempt, perhaps an unwise one, to get Protestants into a Catholic church where they belong, by any means necessary, then it does not cause scandal.

Scandal or offense, biblically speaking, is not "making someone mad or indignant." It means causing someone to seriously misunderstand the faith. This may or may not have happened in response to this choice. I hope it didn't.
Jun 15th 2013 new
You missed the point completely. It is the Ultra and radical traditionalists I was referring to.

In their own minds, they invent a Church never envisioned by Christ, any of the Popes or Councils throughout history, nor any of the Saints.

They enshrine disciplines as Gospel while ignoring the Gospel message. They prefer form over substance. They are holier than any Saint that ever lived. They are more Catholic than any Pope.

As Christ, said (paraphrasing) they worry about the Church's supposed faults, the inadequacy (in their own minds) of Popes, Bishops, all clergy and fellow Catholics while ignoring the mote in their own eye.
Jun 15th 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: You make my point Paul.Thank you.It's the modern Catholics.
If by modern Catholics you mean those who seek to change the teachings of the Church to conform to today's societal norms (i.e. ordination of women, allowing abortion and contraception, gay marriage, etc.) ala Biden Pelosi, Sibelius led by Obummer; then I fully agree with you.

But modernists who are trying to present the unchanging truths of God as enunciated by Christ in the Gospels and through the magisterium of the Church and its liturgy in a manner understandable to modern ears, then your are wrong, they are not the problem.
Jun 15th 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: You missed the point completely. It is the Ultra and radical traditionalists I was referring to.

In their own minds, they invent a Church never envisioned by Christ, any of the Popes or Councils throughout history, nor any of the Saints.

They enshrine disciplines as Gospel while ignoring the Gospel message. They prefer form over substance. They are holier than any Saint that ever lived. They are more Catholic than any Pope.

As Christ, said (paraphrasing) they worry about the Church's supposed faults, the inadequacy (in their own minds) of Popes, Bishops, all clergy and fellow Catholics while ignoring the mote in their own eye.
I'm sorry you dont have a clue Paul.
Jun 16th 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: As the article says,it is up to the local Bishop.

When something like this is allowed, the blessed Sacrament must be removed from the tabernacle, assuming the tabernacle is in the main body of the Church. If it is hidden away, as it unfortunately is in too many church's today, it doesn't matter.

Assuming all requirements have been met, what's the beef?

There are many instances that for some reason or another, where a Catholic Church is not available for Mass, non-catholic churches often extend a helping hand and allow a Catholic mass to be celebrated in their church.

It makes total sense and is an act of Christian Charity for Catholic Churches to return the favor when necessary.
paul---unless my evelyn woods speed reading course was too long ago---I think they mentioned that they ordained JANICE SOMEONE....
Now technically it may be legal........but......gives me a creepy feeling.
Jun 16th 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: I'm sorry you dont have a clue Paul.
I have forgotten more than you will ever learn. What I still know exceeds your potential capacity by many orders of magnitude.
Jun 16th 2013 new
(quote) Tom-112790 said: paul---unless my evelyn woods speed reading course was too long ago---I think they mentioned that they ordained JANICE SOMEONE....
Now technically it may be legal........but......gives me a creepy feeling.
I am not sure what you mean by legal. It is allowed when approved by the local ordinary and the appropiate actions are taken; i.e. removing the Blessed Sacrament if it is in a tabernacle in the main part of the church. If it is already hidden away as it is in far to many Catholic Churches, then it does not matter.

I would also add, that their must be a serious reason for allowing it. Not just to be a nice guy.

I have no problem if someone does not feel well about or as you say gets, "...a creepy feeling." from it.

I do have a problem with those, as so many commented here already, condemn the action as somehow desecrating the Church; or that it is allowing those damned Protestants to sully our church. Especially using some of the language they have.

I would remind them they properly baptized Protestants, as Methodists usually are, are, in fact part of the body of Christ and the Church although they are not aware of the nor in full Communion with it. Most Protestants today are not heretics although they may believe heretical things.

The heretics, in this case, were John and Charles Wesley and George Whitefield as well as their early adherents who left the Church to join them. Those Methodists today who were either born into that denomination or came to it from some other Protestant sect and don't know the truth and have not renounced the truth are not heretics. They are uninformed and unformed.

And technically no ordination took place whether or not the ceremony included a Janice Someone, since they are unable to ordain anyone, male or female. They have no priesthood, so the "ordaining" Bishop is not a Bishop and cannot ordain anyone.
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