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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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Jun 17 new
Lynea,

In the words of the young women I met at Franciscan...Modest IS hot-test!

I think modesty is also among other things a very specific form of communication..a language if you will. Obviously the gent was attracted to you and your modesty or he would not have dated you in the first place. He was confronted with a new language that both attracted him and perplexed him. I see it more as a language barrier! He is not fluent and possibly intimidated by the veil guarding God's love and perfection. I think modesty can be learned, lived and appreciated- but it is counter culture-even for most Catholics...once they understand it, and are exposed to it by not being exposed to it LOL they come to be inspired by it! It requires responsibility, respect, reverence, beauty and truth. Modesty is HONESTY, it is a radical, reserved love for God, husband/wife to be! Perhaps he picked up and learned a little from his experience with you (unbeknownst to him) and he will find himself embracing it more and more...modesty and chastity take practice to learn and fully understand..and go hand in hand....We are all capable of learning it on the curve ;) I do love the occassional chapeau on a gent, and yes yes yes to jackets, collars on shirts and conservative/prep attire- but the demeanor and values must match! Love all the dresses out right now...retro inspired to the knee and femme
Jun 17 new
(quote) Lynea-297530 said: I just got told off by a guy who pretended to be gentleman on CM, for choosing not to wear shorts or even pants unless it's for working out.
Look, if you have a problem with women being modest, men, keep it to yourself.

There are too many men on here calling themselves "Catholic" and "gentlemen" that really seem to be neither.
Wow- good for you, Lynea!! I like to be the same! What a weirdo guy- he should appreciate a woman who respects herself and over whom human-respect has no hold.

Up with Mary-like standards!
Jun 18 new
+

WOW. What cool responses! How exciting!

Thank you to everyone who responded. All your responses were awesome. I really enjoyed that someone brought in the Angelic Doctor on this one. Too often St. Thomas Aquinas gets misrepresented on this one, as if modesty is primarily due to temperance. Modesty has to do with also CHARITY* (*love of God FIRST, and love of neighbor due to love your own love of God). Yes!


Yes it is neat to see that the fashion trends are going the way of being more feminine, and in that sense more modest, but what about stepping it up a notch and still remaining on trend? But am with Leyden too: it should be humble, as well, to give glory to God and not to self, so not to be a clothes glutten (as opposed to gluten ...sp?) and not be more like (no offense to Patti Fans) Patti LaBelle than, oh, say, Maria VonTrapp. lol (I was reachin', but you catch my drift.)

I bet that was the first time any one of you has ever heard those two references in a sentence.

OK, so I meant really 80s and 90s LaBelle.

Anywhoo... it is entirely possible to wear skirts tea length (below the knees), or even lengthen shorter skirts through various means, slip a cute shrug, cardi or small blazer over a short sleeve or even sleeveless dress. If it's a casual dress, there are even more options, like tops underneath. I've even seen that done in clever ways with sundresses! I think most dresses are not too modest, but fashion is fickle so why bend to it anyway? There's always enough room in fashion to make something your own and still be "on trend".

As for the hot summer months: Fashion is sooo diverse nowadays, that there are just too many options to make excuses. There are the gauze skirts (albeit, they require long slips, alla JC Penny's --- which has been one of only one of only two places I can find them), crinkle skirts, and my favorite, knock offs of California designer long skirts that will be cool in more ways than one for a long time. (Write to me here and I will give you some online stores that sell them.)

I used to agonize about the summer months a far as tops, but with the lighter fabrics, layering works, as long as they aren't see-through so much that you can see the skimpy top underneath. There are tricks to making everything work, all it takes is a little practice. Remember: Not all chiffon is created equal!

One mode of thought which is easy to remember, besides setting objective standards for yourself, is remembering what the concept of "clothing" is asking the question, "What is the intention of being "clothed?" To be clothed means to conceal, not to reveal. See how that works?

Ladies, if we really love the way God made us we want to be respected for that, and that means to remember the bigger picture, both temporally and spiritually for ourselves and our brothers, and yes, sisters (especially little girls who we could possibly scandalize, and make them get the wrong idea of themselves, the ideal and what they value of themselves in respect to the world's worldly view).

Guys, if you have a problem with modesty, especially with modesty in women, you don't have an appreciation for how God created us as spiritual beings. Our purpose for being here, having been created by God, isn't to merely do whatever pleases us, but it is to know, to love and to serve God. Even knowledge of God is connected to PURITY, which is protected by modesty. Love of God is shown by humility and putting HIM first, the our neighbor's welfare out of love of God (ask yourselves, "Am I my brother's (or sister's) keeper?"). And lastly, to serve God means not only not to offer scandal (and no, it doesn't matter if all the world is doing it, if it doesn't reflect God's holy will for us it is still wrong, and remember what our Lord said after he said, "Woe to him by whom scandal comes"), but serving God placing HIS rights above our comfort and disordered inclinations.
Jun 18 new
(quote) Marian-83994 said: I saw a dress today that was showing too much at mass. I am certain that these younger ladies do not realize that these fashions are showing too much. I see this weekly. Things that were not being worn 8-10 years ago are being worn now at mass...
I have seen a few parishes where signs are posted explaining what is modest and what is not. More frequently, pastors put a note in the church bulletin. The problem is that short of having a bouncer at the door, those who need correction will not understand that they are part of the problem. Things such as this sometimes send me to the extraordinary form of Mass in frustration.
Jun 19 new
(quote) Andrew-290721 said: I have seen a few parishes where signs are posted explaining what is modest and what is not. More frequently, pastors put a note in the church bulletin. The problem is that short of having a bouncer at the door, those who need correction will not understand that they are part of the problem. Things such as this sometimes send me to the extraordinary form of Mass in frustration.
Most men do not realize that when women are young and at their most attractive ---they are also usually too immature and have not been told why modesty is important. They don't know that they are as attractive and distracting as they are and they don't know why and how men are wired to respond to visual cues. Yesterday in my classroom ...later in the day I noticed a girls cleavage and I didn't say anything but today I am going to have to deal with this. She showed about 3 inches of it which is obviously too low. Again- men need to realize that these girls generally do not understand what they are doing with these poor choices. If parents do not say anything- they do not learn. EVEN if parents speak up- Girls don't get it and just think it is the fashion and so what is wrong?The fashion industry sets the tone and this year there is evern more being shown. Fashions are being designed by those who consider being covered up to look frumpy or matronly. Since i am teaching in a highs school right now I got some higher necked more lose t shirts to wear so I don't have to think about this issue when getting dressed. I deliberately dress more covered up and less tight. ................................The other day when I saw the girl at church in the dress that had spaghetti straps- she did have a black undergarment hiding things but it was simply not enough. Praise to her for including special undergarmets but still it showed too much. The dress has some peek a boo lace and things.
Jun 19 new
I am sorry you had to experience such a guy. :(
To add to what many ladies are saying, modesty is so underappreciated. I don't think many guys realize how difficult it is to find modest, yet flattering, clothing. I realize the standards of flattering is defined by the media and our own perceptions, but it's hard to trick the mind into believing otherwise.
Speaking as someone who struggles to find clothing that I look good in, as well as retaining modesty and comfort, I think that the world has an idea of how we should dress, and look. This means we have to become creative and take what they give us and create something new. It's so true that there are so many crazy fashions out there, and I can only hope that one day the fashion world will realize that not everyone is fashioned the same way (no pun intended).
Jun 19 new
(quote) Angela-965276 said: I am sorry you had to experience such a guy. :(
To add to what many ladies are saying, modesty is so underappreciated. I don't think many guys realize how difficult it is to find modest, yet flattering, clothing. I realize the standards of flattering is defined by the media and our own perceptions, but it's hard to trick the mind into believing otherwise.
Speaking as someone who struggles to find clothing that I look good in, as well as retaining modesty and comfort, I think that the world has an idea of how we should dress, and look. This means we have to become creative and take what they give us and create something new. It's so true that there are so many crazy fashions out there, and I can only hope that one day the fashion world will realize that not everyone is fashioned the same way (no pun intended).
Thank you for sharing that.

It's odd, isn't it, that we are having to debate the merits of a virtue. We don't get to decide what is a virtue, it is written by natural moral law and divine law.

How about I create another thread in the Women's Discussion ... or better yet, in the singles discussion, to post suggestions about modest clothing and what we like to wear and what we like to see on others (both men and women) that is modest?

We can't post photos, but perhaps just links and descriptions would work?
Jun 19 new
Bravo for the courage you have to show respect for modesty and good taste!
Jun 19 new
(quote) Marian-83994 said: Most men do not realize that when women are young and at their most attractive ---they are also usually too immature and have not been told why modesty is important. They don't know that they are as attractive and distracting as they are and they don't know why and how men are wired to respond to visual cues. Yesterday in my classroom ...later in the day I noticed a girls cleavage and I didn't say anything but today I am going to have to deal with this. She showed about 3 inches of it which is obviously too low. Again- men need to realize that these girls generally do not understand what they are doing with these poor choices. If parents do not say anything- they do not learn. EVEN if parents speak up- Girls don't get it and just think it is the fashion and so what is wrong?The fashion industry sets the tone and this year there is evern more being shown. Fashions are being designed by those who consider being covered up to look frumpy or matronly. Since i am teaching in a highs school right now I got some higher necked more lose t shirts to wear so I don't have to think about this issue when getting dressed. I deliberately dress more covered up and less tight. ................................The other day when I saw the girl at church in the dress that had spaghetti straps- she did have a black undergarment hiding things but it was simply not enough. Praise to her for including special undergarmets but still it showed too much. The dress has some peek a boo lace and things.
It's not always the teenagers though; lots of times it's middle-aged women too. Sometimes it's a whole family, "led" by a father, which often makes me wonder what sort of leadership that is. I would not allow my daughters to own such clothing much less wear it. Modesty starts in the clothing store. I know it can be difficult (even I as a man find clothes shopping tedious and depressing these days) but buying appropriate clothing is necessary. Jesus never said that being a Christian would be easy.
Jun 19 new
It seems like men and women were smarter 100 years ago when women wore dresses down to their ankles, hats in church, and men wore baggy pants cool
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