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Discussion related to living as a Catholic in the single state of life. As long as a topic is being discussed from the perspective of a single Catholic then it will be on-topic.

Tobias and Sarah's story is from the Book of Tobit, and his journey is guided by Saint Raphael.
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So that is my theory anyway. Bear with me please! I dance on a regular basis. The ladies that I dance with all dress pretty similar, and they are all modestly dressed- I almost never see any cleavage or midriffs, and very rarely any leg above the knee. The clothes are "tight enough so I know she's a woman and loose enough that I know she is a lady." (in fact if many of the ladies at church dressed as well as the ladies I dance with I would appreciate it greatly!)

Yet despite similar dress, there are certain ladies I know that have a quality that set them apart from the others and it's a term that I find best described by hot- that their personality has a lot of fire- that they are full of spirit or life or perhaps most accurately a spirit of womanhood. It has nothing to do with having sex- two of the first women I think of as having this quality are virgins, and in fact pretty much all of them are extremely chaste. Rather I feel as if I need to be on my "A" game to handle the "fire" she brings.
*
So for further discussion:
*
(1) does this make sense?
(2) Is "hot" okay for a gent to use? Or has it been to corrupted by our current culture? Is another term (fiery?) better? Why?
(3) Modesty involves more than dress- is there another aspect of modesty that is correlated with "Hot-ness?"
(4) and any other thoughts!


Jun 17 new
Matt,

My understanding is that the young women who sum it up as such say this with a sense of humor while also getting a point across seriousness as a bridge between modern culture (that they/we are steeped in) and a higher ideal/order. Its ok and in fact attractive/virtuous to be modest which is not what everyone else is telling them in the fashion/secular world- even Catholic young men. Understanding and encouraging Catholic and Christian virtue for teens and young adults often they come up with catchy phrases...For instance- the Devil is a Liar (prounounced LIAH with Ny accent) and Jesus is the Messiah.....

Hotness is the fire and conviction in Christ- and often is a fiery spirit that knows better than to follow "what they are wearing". Perhaps fiery is a better term for gents and hotness does have unattractive connotation when taken out of the context of young women who are traditional practicing catholics trying to set an example for their friends (some of who may be secularized) and appealing to their spirited, fiery time of life!

Modesty is not just dress its a form of communication and yes, it must come through actions/ demeanor etc.

Hope that helps you to understand the context, idea and message

Pace,
Lisa
Jun 18 new
(quote) Matt-61677 said: So that is my theory anyway. Bear with me please! I dance on a regular basis. The ladies that I dance with all dress pretty similar, and they are all modestly dressed- I almost never see any cleavage or midriffs, and very rarely any leg above the knee. The clothes are "tight enough so I know she's a woman and loose enough that I know she is a lady." (in fact if many of the ladies at church dressed as well as the ladies I dance with I would appreciate it greatly!)

Yet despite similar dress, there are certain ladies I know that have a quality that set them apart from the others and it's a term that I find best described by hot- that their personality has a lot of fire- that they are full of spirit or life or perhaps most accurately a spirit of womanhood. It has nothing to do with having sex- two of the first women I think of as having this quality are virgins, and in fact pretty much all of them are extremely chaste. Rather I feel as if I need to be on my "A" game to handle the "fire" she brings.
*
So for further discussion:
*
(1) does this make sense?
(2) Is "hot" okay for a gent to use? Or has it been to corrupted by our current culture? Is another term (fiery?) better? Why?
(3) Modesty involves more than dress- is there another aspect of modesty that is correlated with "Hot-ness?"
(4) and any other thoughts!


Matt,
I don't know the answer to all of your questions but I can speak from experience. I live in an area of the country that is largely Mormon. Mormon women are required to dress "modestly" by today's standards. They are not allowed to bare their shoulders or their knees and are required to wear dresses/skirts to ALL church functions. Their neckline must be close to the "neck bone". I have attended church events in their church several times and was shocked at the "seduction" of the women. Their clothing fits the "requirements" of the church but they wear tight knit outfits and "stripper" heels, with lots of jewelry, makeup and hair accessories. They walk with a great deal of confidence and "seduction". Unfortunately, even in the "modest" attire, the women's innocence is lost as the "hot-ness" becomes the focus. I would not want for my daughter's to take on the "spirit of womanhood" you are referring to. The "spirit of womanhood" I desire for my daughters involve being in God's graces, which includes an ability to attract a young man because of her desire to serve God, not her "hot-ness".
Might I suggest reading scripture as there are lots of references to the type of woman that makes a good wife, and it doesn't involve anything even remotely close to being "hot".
Jun 18 new
(quote) Lisa-933589 said: Matt,

My understanding is that the young women who sum it up as such say this with a sense of humor while also getting a point across seriousness as a bridge between modern culture (that they/we are steeped in) and a higher ideal/order. Its ok and in fact attractive/virtuous to be modest which is not what everyone else is telling them in the fashion/secular world- even Catholic young men. Understanding and encouraging Catholic and Christian virtue for teens and young adults often they come up with catchy phrases...For instance- the Devil is a Liar (prounounced LIAH with Ny accent) and Jesus is the Messiah.....

Hotness is the fire and conviction in Christ- and often is a fiery spirit that knows better than to follow "what they are wearing". Perhaps fiery is a better term for gents and hotness does have unattractive connotation when taken out of the context of young women who are traditional practicing catholics trying to set an example for their friends (some of who may be secularized) and appealing to their spirited, fiery time of life!

Modesty is not just dress its a form of communication and yes, it must come through actions/ demeanor etc.

Hope that helps you to understand the context, idea and message

Pace,
Lisa
Lisa,
Very well put!! "Hotness is the fire and conviction in Christ and often is a fiery spirit that knows better than to follow what they are wearing." I love this!!
Jun 18 new
I really don't like the terms 'hot' or 'sexy' -- I feel they are demeaning and focus on the wrong things and undermine a person's worth and self-image.
I want to 'burn with love of God' and also to be appealing and attractive to men (one forever man) but I don't want my body to be all that he is attracted to or the main thing he is attracted to. We all age and our bodies show wear and use -- this should not make us less appealing or less attractive to anyone -- if someone is that shallow, I really am not going to feel that strong a connection or attraction to them anyhow. But if someone feels the burn of my love for life, for truth, for God and is attracted to that, that I appreciate and usually reciprocate. Be on fire for God and love His people, and I will love you!
Just my thoughts :)
Jun 18 new
(quote) Rachel-731570 said: I really don't like the terms 'hot' or 'sexy' -- I feel they are demeaning and focus on the wrong things and undermine a person's worth and self-image.
I want to 'burn with love of God' and also to be appealing and attractive to men (one forever man) but I don't want my body to be all that he is attracted to or the main thing he is attracted to. We all age and our bodies show wear and use -- this should not make us less appealing or less attractive to anyone -- if someone is that shallow, I really am not going to feel that strong a connection or attraction to them anyhow. But if someone feels the burn of my love for life, for truth, for God and is attracted to that, that I appreciate and usually reciprocate. Be on fire for God and love His people, and I will love you!
Just my thoughts :)
biggrin


Oh wow. You've hit the nail on the head.

WOWEE! People who don't get it think either that spirituality is something subjective, and not either authentically Catholic or not, that their own opinion matters more than God's or that they can compromise with God on what objectively pleases Him.

BUT, it is IMPOSSIBLE to see and understand these things having been indoctrinated by the world's views UNLESS our mind and heart is converted by the Gifts of the Holy Ghost. I was definitely one of those people who thought I was modest because I compared myself to the standards of what other women were wearing, not realizing I was really pharasaical, but without the piety (even worse...lol!), "I give Thee thanks that I am not like ...(one of those women that dress immodestly by my standards)..."

IT wasn't until I did the Preparation for Total Consecration that my 'tastes' changed. I didn't even realize what had happened until like 7 weeks later that I realized I was wearing on a sliver of a fraction of my wardrobe, keeping with just a few items that were modest (except I had difficulty with the blouse --- because the way they cut blouses today for women is ridiculous). I eventually sorted that out, however. Anyway, this is all about putting God first, and in exchange, He fortifies us in His graces.

Now I look at immodest people and think, "He/she is called to a great state of holiness, and they haven't even begun the journey yet. They may be called to a much higher degree of sanctity to most people who are now striving for holiness, but who will know unless they give up their wills to God's?"

*sigh*

It is just so frustrating, because I think some women have no idea how damaging immodesty is to their brother neighbor, whether or not he is aware of the damage. I used to think, "Well, if he gets the 'wrong idea' that's HIS problem." But how wrong I was! Our Lord warned us about people like I was, that it would be better that a millstone had been tied around my neck and tossed into the sea! And that would not have been the worse of it! The worse of it is awareness of God and awareness of having been separated from Him. Wowee! That is the biggest pain of hell, of all the many pains.

But God is so merciful and good, that He gives us the opportunity to call upon Him to have the grace to know, love and serve Him. Ask, no, BEG for the infused graces (Gifts of) of the Holy Ghost, but even better, ask through the Blessed Virgin Mary, as with the Preparation for Total Consecration, because HER prayers are more effective than ours on their own, to say the least, and are more powerful than all the saints put together.

All that is not to say that we won't still have temptations, especially when the weather is hot and we want to go swimming, and there is a chance that others will see us, especially of the opposite gender. But I have to remind myself all that the Lord and the Blessed Mother have suffered and did for me personally. They mean more to me than anything else. And may they continue to keep me under Her mantle, and may the Lord hold me with both hands. By my modesty, I am not merely clothing my God-created body, but also I have put on "the armor of God" by my choosing to put Him first.
Jun 18 new
Oh ... and I forgot to point out.
A member from CM recently pointed out a book by Ed Sri, "Men, Women and the Mystery of Love" (I have not read this book and can't really endorse it yet) that is based on Blessed John Paul II's book, "Love and Responsibility", which is based on the consistent teachings of the Church by the Church Father's and Doctor's. A great point that these books make that's not really been mentioned in the context of this discussion on modesty is that immodesty objectifies the person. Yes, that's right! You read that correctly! It OBJECTIFIES the person as if they are to be seen for their sexuality as if is something apart from their whole, integral person. In other words, it separates it making it a distinctive characteristic, drawing inordinate attention to itself expressly for the intent and purpose of being perceived as if their sexuality is something that should be on display, even to the point of soliciting disordered desires, thoughts, etc. and even contributing to the desensitization of immodesty and impurity on the whole. These are horrible consequences that contribute to the utilitarianism philosophy that is sadly THE NORM in our society. This is in all places of society, from the workplace to (yep, you better believe it) dating... even among Catholics! (ouch! surprised sorry ashamed )

Check this out: Google "John Paul ii" "Utilitarianism" and "dating" or "courtship"


Pope John Paul II mentioned Utilitarianism in his encyclical "Vertatis Splendor":

"utilitarianism..., where morality of human acts would be judged without any reference to man's true ulitmate end." (VS 74) Man's true ulitimate end is of course, final union with God, or getting to heaven.

books.google.com

I saw this excerpt too, which is getting a little tangental from the topic at hand, but never-the-less, can be applied here, From Ed Sri:
"Pope John Paul II notes how utilitarian relationships breed fear and insecurity in one or both of the persons. A warning sign that one might be in a utilitarian relationship is when one person is afraid to bring up difficult topics or fears addressing problems in the relationship with their beloved.

One reason many couples (whether they be dating, engaged, or married) never confront each other with difficulties is that deep down they know there is not much of a foundation for the relationship to stand onjust the mutual pleasure or benefit. One fears that if the relationship becomes challenging, demanding, or difficult for the other person, the other may leave. The only way the relationship can survive is to cover up problems and pretend things arent as bad as they really are.

Mind you, this type of thinking doesn't have to mean that there is directly sexual exploitation --- as this couple may be completely chaste. But from my own experience, even being chaste, I can see how there are men (and assume also women) who say they want to do the holy Will of God, however, they are unaware of their own thought patterns that have already been damaged by previous sins, and sins they still commit out of presumption to God's mercy. God then permits their intellect to remain in darkness, lacking empathy for their neighbor, etc.

I might have to get Mr. Sri's book as well.
Jun 18 new
(quote) Matt-61677 said: So that is my theory anyway. Bear with me please! I dance on a regular basis. The ladies that I dance with all dress pretty similar, and they are all modestly dressed- I almost never see any cleavage or midriffs, and very rarely any leg above the knee. The clothes are "tight enough so I know she's a woman and loose enough that I know she is a lady." (in fact if many of the ladies at church dressed as well as the ladies I dance with I would appreciate it greatly!)

Yet despite similar dress, there are certain ladies I know that have a quality that set them apart from the others and it's a term that I find best described by hot- that their personality has a lot of fire- that they are full of spirit or life or perhaps most accurately a spirit of womanhood. It has nothing to do with having sex- two of the first women I think of as having this quality are virgins, and in fact pretty much all of them are extremely chaste. Rather I feel as if I need to be on my "A" game to handle the "fire" she brings.
*
So for further discussion:
*
(1) does this make sense?
(2) Is "hot" okay for a gent to use? Or has it been to corrupted by our current culture? Is another term (fiery?) better? Why?
(3) Modesty involves more than dress- is there another aspect of modesty that is correlated with "Hot-ness?"
(4) and any other thoughts!


A few observations:

1. Hot as defined by dictionary.com defines the slang term as "intense sexual desire or attraction" and I always think it has something to do with sexual arousal.

2. If someone said that I was hot...
-I like to be seen as attractive...but I'd feel a little odd thinking I'd gotten someone aroused.
-I would try to accept it graciously and take it as a compliment, trying to understand where he was coming from. Perhaps he is too rough to know that he should say I'm lovely or beautiful
-the man who said it to me would be defined as a "guy" or as a "kid" in my mind and not a gentleman or even a man.

3. Your take on the term is beautiful, but no one else is going to see it that way unless you define it for them just prior to using it. You've taken an unlikely word and purified it (I do it all the time!) but you cannot just spring it on folks and expect them to understand.


www.qideas.org

Jun 18 new
(quote) Naomi-825244 said:

3. Your take on the term is beautiful, but no one else is going to see it that way unless you define it for them just prior to using it. You've taken an unlikely word and purified it (I do it all the time!) but you cannot just spring it on folks and expect them to understand.


http://www.qideas.org/video/the-evolution-of-the-swimsuit.aspx

Nice video link Naomi! Thanks!
Jun 18 new
Wow! Lynea, you really gave me some ideas to chew on today in re: utilitarian relationships.
It really might be worthwhile to get Mr. Sri's book.
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