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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
Learn More:Saint Thomas More

Jul 8th 2013 new
(quote) Michelle-985969 said: My point you missed as well. You personally do not have to have an abortion even though the option exists in our government. I understand your sorrow at the innocent lives that have been lost and I share it. But every person who decides this has free will to do what they think is right. If we didn't have these freedoms, then we would become a Taliban-like country.
The people (both man and woman) in question made the choice to have sex; all actions have consequences. While they try to escape the consequences through an abortion, they ultimately will be held to account for a far more serious sin. Abortion demonstrates that one is closed to life and to God and violates the two highest commandments (love God and love thy neighbor). Someone who procures an abortion ( a man can be guilty of this by setting the conditions incorrectly ) shows a callous desire to use the other person solely for the pleasures he/she can bring. An abortion violates the former by destroying his creation and makes Jesus's crucifixion more necessary.

Our 5th amendment has a clause that no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process. I cannot think of what crime a person could have committed prior to being born. What creates circumstances like the Taliban is a lack of self-control. Afghanistan has been ruled by tribes by centuries that engage in long blood feuds. What created the West (which has the highest longevity of anywhere in the world) is a constant pressure of several centuries of self-control and mastery. This is interwoven into our Bill of Rights.

The First Amendment allows everyone to speak and for all points of view to be considered, not just the majority's; in addition if their is a grievance, one can sue the government. The fourth amendment guarantees that we cannot be harassed by the police without probable cause (i.e., the police cannot harass because they feel like it; they must have a reason). The fifth amendment establishes that the government has to prove its case (i.e., assemble the facts and make them known) and cannot keep trying to get a conviction. The sixth establishes that in such matters we can defend ourselves and refute the government's allegations.


Jul 8th 2013 new
(quote) Michelle-985969 said: I am responsible for no one other than myself. if someone decides to jump off a cliff, am I responsible for that person's decision as well?
Please prayerfully consider your various stances... It seems to be at the core of your support of politicians who support/enact laws that are so appose to natural law and apposed to God.
Abortion is wrong..it is a bad choice. It is a bad choice for you and for me. in 1973 the supreme court gave me (at age 3) a license to kill. it limits me to my own pre-born child... It is not right that me a fallen human have that license.
you seem to hang on "free to choose" though you yourself would "never have an abortion." If it is wrong for you why is it NOT wrong for your sisters? Aren't you my sister in Christ? You almost ask the question Cain asked God defiantly in Genesis after he murdered his brother "..Am I my brother's keeper?" The answer is yes, Michelle we are our brother's keeper/our sister's keeper.
When you say you should be free to choose or you would consider us living in Taliban country is really out there...Another question to consider Michelle is that if we as women have this license to kill our pre-born children why is it wrong to kill the newborn? (they are pretty much useless are they not?), how about our pesky aging parents? Can't we do something about them? ...
Please pray for enlightenment.
Jul 8th 2013 new
(quote) Michelle-985969 said: Yes surely you can counsel someone not to have an abortion or not to commit suicide. I think that is very God-like and noble. But that can only happen if you know the person or you work at some kind of agency. Well technically suicide is murder just that in abortion you are taking two lives instead of one.
No, suicide is not technically murder since murder id, by definition, taking the life of another person.

[Moderator's Note: a portion of this post  has been removed as it referred to a statement the author susequently identified as an editing error and which has been removed from the original post.]

Jul 8th 2013 new
(quote) Michelle-985969 said: You are talking about Church laws not government laws. Sir with all due respect, I believe the best thing for a country is separation of church and state. This is part of what being a democracy is all about. If you want to live in a country governed by religion people should just move to Saudi Arabia or any other country of that nature.
Our own government is not keeping church and state separate. Our government needs to follow our 1st amendment re: religious liberty:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


Unfortunately, our government brought the fight of the HHS mandate to our Church's door. Our government wants to mandate non-profit organizations to have to provide insurance with procedures that counter their beliefs.

There are many lawsuits due to our government not keeping church and state separate: www.becketfund.org
Jul 8th 2013 new
(quote) Pedyne-248823 said: Please prayerfully consider your various stances... It seems to be at the core of your support of politicians who support/enact laws that are so appose to natural law and apposed to God.
Abortion is wrong..it is a bad choice. It is a bad choice for you and for me. in 1973 the supreme court gave me (at age 3) a license to kill. it limits me to my own pre-born child... It is not right that me a fallen human have that license.
you seem to hang on "free to choose" though you yourself would "never have an abortion." If it is wrong for you why is it NOT wrong for your sisters? Aren't you my sister in Christ? You almost ask the question Cain asked God defiantly in Genesis after he murdered his brother "..Am I my brother's keeper?" The answer is yes, Michelle we are our brother's keeper/our sister's keeper.
When you say you should be free to choose or you would consider us living in Taliban country is really out there...Another question to consider Michelle is that if we as women have this license to kill our pre-born children why is it wrong to kill the newborn? (they are pretty much useless are they not?), how about our pesky aging parents? Can't we do something about them? ...
Please pray for enlightenment.
You assume that everyone in this country is a Christ follower which is not the reality. There are different religions and atheists/agnostics as well. I don't feel that I should impose my beliefs on someone else. I find your stance as praying for enlightment very condescending and judgmental on your part. Since I am above that I will not suggest it for yourself.
Jul 8th 2013 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: No, suicide is not technically murder since murder id, by definition, taking the life of another person.

In general, abortion results in only one physical death -- that of the child. In some circumstances there may be multiplec hildren killed or the mother may die along with the child, however, these are circumstantialre sults, not the character of the act of abortion.

No need to answer. I realized my mistake. Go back and please read my corrected post.
Jul 8th 2013 new
(quote) Alex-789274 said: The people (both man and woman) in question made the choice to have sex; all actions have consequences. While they try to escape the consequences through an abortion, they ultimately will be held to account for a far more serious sin. Abortion demonstrates that one is closed to life and to God and violates the two highest commandments (love God and love thy neighbor). Someone who procures an abortion ( a man can be guilty of this by setting the conditions incorrectly ) shows a callous desire to use the other person solely for the pleasures he/she can bring. An abortion violates the former by destroying his creation and makes Jesus's crucifixion more necessary.

Our 5th amendment has a clause that no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process. I cannot think of what crime a person could have committed prior to being born. What creates circumstances like the Taliban is a lack of self-control. Afghanistan has been ruled by tribes by centuries that engage in long blood feuds. What created the West (which has the highest longevity of anywhere in the world) is a constant pressure of several centuries of self-control and mastery. This is interwoven into our Bill of Rights.

The First Amendment allows everyone to speak and for all points of view to be considered, not just the majority's; in addition if their is a grievance, one can sue the government. The fourth amendment guarantees that we cannot be harassed by the police without probable cause (i.e., the police cannot harass because they feel like it; they must have a reason). The fifth amendment establishes that the government has to prove its case (i.e., assemble the facts and make them known) and cannot keep trying to get a conviction. The sixth establishes that in such matters we can defend ourselves and refute the government's allegations.


Amen, Alex. Thank you for bringing a little more clarity to the topic.
Jul 8th 2013 new
(quote) Michelle-985969 said: Well I guess Wendy I am not a faithful Catholic. IMO, loving your neighbor and living like Jesus instructed us to do is more important to me. There is a reason why Church and State are separate in this country.
The reason I use the phrase faithful Catholic is because I know there are other Christian denominations out there who only follow scripture. If we only follow scripture, then we are Christians, but of another denomination (other than Catholics).
As Catholics, we use not only scripture, but our Catechism of the Catholic Church, to lead us in our faith journey. And when our bishops speak out about issues like abortion and homosexual marriage, we are called, as faithful Catholics to be obedient to their teachings. (see the links in my prior post). When we are not obedient, when we decide things like "Well, I think it's a woman's right to choose" or "it's o.k. if they marry, they love each other, and God is all about love", then we're really straying away from our Church's beliefs and following a different path, other than Catholicism.
Jul 8th 2013 new
(quote) Michelle-985969 said: You assume that everyone in this country is a Christ follower which is not the reality. There are different religions and atheists/agnostics as well. I don't feel that I should impose my beliefs on someone else. I find your stance as praying for enlightment very condescending and judgmental on your part. Since I am above that I will not suggest it for yourself.
And you consider opposing murder as "imposing your beliefs on someone else."

Pedyne was being kind by saying you should pray for enlightenment. You should
first learn the difference between right and wrong.
Jul 8th 2013 new
(quote) Wendy-387654 said: The reason I use the phrase faithful Catholic is because I know there are other Christian denominations out there who only follow scripture. If we only follow scripture, then we are Christians, but of another denomination (other than Catholics).
As Catholics, we use not only scripture, but our Catechism of the Catholic Church, to lead us in our faith journey. And when our bishops speak out about issues like abortion and homosexual marriage, we are called, as faithful Catholics to be obedient to their teachings. (see the links in my prior post). When we are not obedient, when we decide things like "Well, I think it's a woman's right to choose" or "it's o.k. if they marry, they love each other, and God is all about love", then we're really straying away from our Church's beliefs and following a different path, other than Catholicism.
Exactly we Catholics are called to be obedient. Not everyone else.
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