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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
Learn More: Saint Augustine

Jul 13th 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: You could also add, that there are people,who are not mentally ill, who just feel they are entitled, period, whether it be to go to the front of the line or that everyone else exist for them.

Although David's points have a lot of value to them, we are living in an age of extreme uncouthness, selfishness and narcissism.

That won't change until those adversely affected demand better behavior. And I would add, that all of us are guilty of these same sins at times.

Recently, I had an example of this thoughtlessness pulled on me. I was walking, in the general direction that most of those around me were proceeding some in opposite directions. For clarity let's say the general flow was proceeding north and south.

Along comes a young man (they are almost all younger than me these days) moving crosswise or perpendicular to the general flow. He proceeded to step right in front of me almost causing a collision. As he passed merrily on his way he said in that superior put down way, "Excuse you!!!!" implying I was at fault and of course, should have automatically stopped as he was so superior. I just shook my head and kept walking.
Contra, I seem to recall a Gospel that teaches us to turn the other cheek when offended. This doesn't mean we just ignore the offense, but if more people offered up the inconveniences rather than getting upset and prayed for the offenders I suspect in the-long term it will be far more effective than reacting to our emotions and taking matters into our own hands.

There are some obvious exceptions to the above. Parents and others in authority roles need to do a much better job of teaching respect and correcting the errors of those in their charge. In cases where the behavior of the offender and/or others may be at risk immediate action may be called for.

Jul 13th 2013 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: Contra, I seem to recall a Gospel that teaches us to turn the other cheek when offended. This doesn't mean we just ignore the offense, but if more people offered up the inconveniences rather than getting upset and prayed for the offenders I suspect in the-long term it will be far more effective than reacting to our emotions and taking matters into our own hands.

There are some obvious exceptions to the above. Parents and others in authority roles need to do a much better job of teaching respect and correcting the errors of those in their charge. In cases where the behavior of the offender and/or others may be at risk immediate action may be called for.

But the dicta to turn the other cheek does not mean or imply that we always allow ourselves to be walked over, ignored, etc.

It does say, we should not of necessity retaliate.

It does not say that if we catch a thief in our home we should just willy neely let him take what they wish while we stand by doing nothing. Nor that having the means to protect ourselves when threthened we should just let the aggressor kill us.
Jul 13th 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: But the dicta to turn the other cheek does not mean or imply that we always allow ourselves to be walked over, ignored, etc.

It does say, we should not of necessity retaliate.

It does not say that if we catch a thief in our home we should just willy neely let him take what they wish while we stand by doing nothing. Nor that having the means to protect ourselves when threthened we should just let the aggressor kill us.
Those are not comparable analogies.

Jul 13th 2013 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: Contra, I seem to recall a Gospel that teaches us to turn the other cheek when offended. This doesn't mean we just ignore the offense, but if more people offered up the inconveniences rather than getting upset and prayed for the offenders I suspect in the-long term it will be far more effective than reacting to our emotions and taking matters into our own hands.

There are some obvious exceptions to the above. Parents and others in authority roles need to do a much better job of teaching respect and correcting the errors of those in their charge. In cases where the behavior of the offender and/or others may be at risk immediate action may be called for.

I haven't heard the correct position on this yet...

If someone wants to allow someone to cut in line for the confessional, then the truly correct action is to take that person's place at the back of the line.

(I mean, if we are really serious about being meek and charitable, then let's also be meek and charitable to those behind us who have been waiting. We have no idea what their circumstances are, and what sins they may have to confess.)

Let's really be meek and charitable.

Jul 13th 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: But the dicta to turn the other cheek does not mean or imply that we always allow ourselves to be walked over, ignored, etc.

Matthew 5:39 followed by the Haydock commentary:

"But I say to you, not to resist evil: *but if any one strike thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Ver. 39. Not to resist evil;[6] i.e. not to resist or revenge thyself of him that hath done evil to thee. --- Turn him the other cheek. Let him have also thy cloak. These are to be understood as admonitions to Christians, to forgive every one, and to bear patiently all manner of private injuries. But we must not from hence conclude it unlawful for any one to have recourse to the laws, when a man is injured, and cannot have justice by any other means. (Witham) --- What is here commanded, is a Christian patience under injuries and affronts, and to be willing even to suffer still more, rather than to indulge the desire of revenge; but what is further added does not strictly oblige according to the letter, for neither did Christ, nor St. Paul, turn the other cheek. (St. John xviii. and Acts xxiii.) (Challoner) --- Hence also the Anabaptists infer, that it is not lawful to go to law even for our just rights; and Luther, that Christians ought not to resist the Turks. (Bristow)

haydock1859.tripod.com


Jul 13th 2013 new
(quote) William-607613 said: I haven't heard the correct position on this yet...

If someone wants to allow someone to cut in line for the confessional, then the truly correct action is to take that person's place at the back of the line.

(I mean, if we are really serious about being meek and charitable, then let's also be meek and charitable to those behind us who have been waiting. We have no idea what their circumstances are, and what sins they may have to confess.)

Let's really be meek and charitable.

Allowing those behind you in line to go ahead would indeed be a meritorious act of charity.

If the person requests to cut ahead of you in line, then in fairness to the others in line you should indeed exchange positions in line with that person unless those between the two positions in the line also consent . If the person forces their way in front of you, I see no such obligation, even if you don't confront them.


Jul 13th 2013 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: Matthew 5:39 followed by the Haydock commentary:

"But I say to you, not to resist evil: *but if any one strike thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Ver. 39. Not to resist evil;[6] i.e. not to resist or revenge thyself of him that hath done evil to thee. --- Turn him the other cheek. Let him have also thy cloak. These are to be understood as admonitions to Christians, to forgive every one, and to bear patiently all manner of private injuries. But we must not from hence conclude it unlawful for any one to have recourse to the laws, when a man is injured, and cannot have justice by any other means. (Witham) --- What is here commanded, is a Christian patience under injuries and affronts, and to be willing even to suffer still more, rather than to indulge the desire of revenge; but what is further added does not strictly oblige according to the letter, for neither did Christ, nor St. Paul, turn the other cheek. (St. John xviii. and Acts xxiii.) (Challoner) --- Hence also the Anabaptists infer, that it is not lawful to go to law even for our just rights; and Luther, that Christians ought not to resist the Turks. (Bristow)

http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id19.html


Which support what I said.
Jul 13th 2013 new
Chalsey, You and your son are wonderful people. I don't think I would have handled the situation so well. Now that this experience is over, I would contact the Pastor on the phone or meet with him in person and enlighten him about the entire episode. Ask him to evaluate what occurred and ask him for a solution to remedy such a thing transpiring in the future. Ask him what plan does he have to accomodate indivuials with special needs so that all others need not be subjected to this fiasco.
Jul 14th 2013 new
How is this to be understood vis a vis Ezekiel 33? It's the opposite of mercy to simply allow others to subsist as ignorant wretches when perhaps, by the grace of God we might impart to them as a courtesy lessons of etiquette? Frankly, if this were me I'd be relieved if someone told me I was making a mistake, and the sooner the better.

We all make fools of ourselves at one time or another, and being warned of it in time to amend our behavior takes the sting out of that humiliation. Moreover, advising individuals of their rudeness gives them more to confess in the confessional. It's exactly why we go to penance; to receive instruction on how we might be more Christ-like.

Besides, their miserable example in the confessional line will undoubtedly lead others to think the behavior is acceptable and then it feeds on itself.

Lastly, Jesus is too often watered down and that's no justice to God. The merciful and gentle Jesus is just one side of Jesus. Jesus chased the money changers out of the Temple with bullwhip. Now while I concede that what we're dealing with in this particular instance is hardly as grave, it can be righteous to insist that unruly individuals observe some respect while on consecrated ground.

If you're squemish about rebuking in Church, then see if you can't meet the person in the parking lot. Start with a charitable introduction like "I don't pretend to know what sufferings and failings you bring to God in the Sacrament, and as I am also an imperfect follower of Christ, it is with sympathy from one prodigal to another and with love for my fellow brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ, that I must advise you that your behavior is disrupting the orderly procession to the Sacrament of Penance that you might be aware of it and show charity for the other members of the Body."

it is silly to believe that Christians are ill-equipped to correct wrongdoings. I have to disagree strongly, but respectfully, with Dave, my fellow Clevelander.
Jul 14th 2013 new
Oh and I would also stress the point to these individuals that many penitents may have exceedingly grave sins to confess, and that Penance can feel hard enough as it is without added stressors. Absolution is a life giving grace drawn by the sick and suffering to restore their health. I can remember as a boy when my parents separated and my father stopped taking me to Mass for years, until I lived with my mother again. Going to Confession after years without was like getting a root canal, I was sweating bullets the whole time, and every moment I got closer in line, I felt like walking out. A spectacle like that described by the OP might have stoked the flames of my fear and sent me out the door, exiled once again for many years from the faith of my baptism.
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