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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Jul 13th 2013 new
Yes!

Definitely, it is Ok for a Christian woman to wear a bikini, in my opinion. The human body is beautiful and to be admired. False modesty or embarrassment about our bodies is a cultural relic of Middle Eastern desert cultures that really makes little sense. Look at the burkahs of sharia law countries now and you will see this embarrassment of the body taken to its extreme. Fear of bikinis is in the same catagory.

The body should be celebrated just as should be the mind and the heart and all the gifts of humanness. We are not Puritans, although clearly some on this site would like to see us revert to Puritanism or a christian form of sharia law. Fine if that's what you want, but not for me.

Of course, there is a time and a place for everything. The term is decorum. One should not wear a bikini to a formal dinner party or to sunday mass. But a bikini on a hot day at the beach, on a boat, swimming or in your back yard is perfectly appropriate in my book.

In fact I see nothing wrong with women going topless in those situations. I've spent time in villages where this was common and women breast fed in public and I thought it was the most natural, beautiful, and heathy thing in the world. In that atmosphere, the false cultural sexual baggage that western culture places on the female breast disappears and it is just physical beauty in the same sense as a leg, and arm or a face, with an appropriate function and lots of variety in form.

I'm reminded of how Jesus handled the cultural baggage of dietary laws in his day. He said that it is not what a man puts into his mouth that defiles him, but rather what come out of his mouth. I think it is the same with the human body. It is not the sight of a human body that defiles a person but rather the mental response...often culturally conditioned, that a man has to the sight. Cultures invented this embarrassment about the body and one can rid oneself of the false attitude by just chosing to do so.

Of course, being a physician, i see lots of bodies and so maybe have a more open minded view of this than more sheltered souls. Still, I think my view is sound. I had it before my training. If you look over most traditional societies, breasts are usually uncovered in warm climates, while the sexual organs are usually covered. This is natural. Breasts are not sexual organs and neither is skin. The area that should be modestly covered and reserved for the husband is indeed rather small.

So, I say, enjoy your bikinis. There are a lot more important issues to worry about! Like what comes out of our mouths :-)


Jul 13th 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: Then, I presume, your opinion would also be that it is not immoral to refuse to appear naked for her husband. And Vice Versa, for anyone who might object that I hold one standard for women and another for men.
Nope. I take issue with the implication that it could be a sin not to indulge a husband's fantasy, fetish, or whatever. If a woman feels objectified or used, then she should stand up for herself.
Jul 13th 2013 new
(quote) Mary-847286 said: Exactly. Why not expect women to wear a French Maid costume or sexy school girl attire? It is for their husband, after all. If a woman wants to wear something for her husband, then go for it. But it is not a sin to have self respect or not want to be objectified in marriage.

Wanting/needing to please one's husband should not include anything a woman finds demeaning.
No one said or implied that a husband should demand anything of his wife that she might find demeaning or vice versa.
Jul 13th 2013 new
(quote) Chelsea-743484 said: Trousers are ancient. Those of both sexes living in the Near East/Middle East wore them: the German pagans, Arab pagans and Persian pagans. The problem with treating modesty as a dress code rather than as a virtue is that you end up with a woman wearing any split-legged garment as "immodest". Palazzo pants, riding skirts and harem pants all per se can be worn alone as a leg covering by a woman without injuring her modesty. It's when women in general start wearing in public masculine clothing in the ordinary or the garb of the harlot (i.e., appealing to either extreme of indecency: androgyny or whorish-ness/slutish-ness) that attire can be called specifically and objectively immodest. It's also when women in general start to dress with the internal purpose to convey venereal or morose delectation that the behaviour can be called specifically and subjectively immodest.

A woman wearing a bikini in intimate settings for her husband is violating no moral. She may, in fact, be violating morals, if her husband wished her to wear a bikini for him intimately, by her refusal to do so.
What's the evidence for the claim that 'androgyny' is objectively immodest as well as an extreme of indecency? Is it objectively immodest for a woman who is a police or military officer to come home from work and change into a sportscoat and chinos to go bowling?
Jul 13th 2013 new
(quote) Gerald-283546 said: Yes!

Definitely, it is Ok for a Christian woman to wear a bikini, in my opinion.
Key words -- in your opinion. Alas, it's not your opinion, my opinion, or anyone else's opinion that matters. We need to be seeking out the objective standard of modesty, not leading them astray with our personal opinions.

Do you consider the admonitions of the Blessed Virgin to be examples of false modesty? In 1917 she warned the children at Fatima: "Certain fashions will be introduced that will offend Our Lord very much." While she doesn't specifically mention what styles of dress will offend the Lord, I can't image what could be much worse than a bikini.

For more information on modest dress, see www.fatima.org References to some guidelines issued by the Church may be found at
www.olrl.org
www.national-coalition.org

If you do a forum searchfor modesty in dress, there have been some posts int he past with links to sermons by several priests on this matter. Look especially for posts by Bernard-2709.

For much more information, search for <modesty Fatima> using your favorite search engine (you may need to remove the angle brackets).







Jul 13th 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: No one said or implied that a husband should demand anything of his wife that she might find demeaning or vice versa.
Chelsea said that it might be sinful for a woman to refuse to wear a bikini for her husband if he wanted her to.

I say that a woman can refuse to wear a bikini for her husband. Whether the wife is refusing because she doesn't like the way she looks in it, or she feels like an object does not matter. She can say no and not be sinning. My point was that if it were a sin to refuse to dress in a manner that pleases a husband, then women could be put in a position to demean themselves--not that all requests are demeaning.
Jul 13th 2013 new
(quote) Gerald-283546 said:
Of course, being a physician, i see lots of bodies and so maybe have a more open minded view of this than more sheltered souls.
I suppose you should be glad you're not a coroner. Not only will you see lots of naked bodies but you'll see them whole, in parts, inside out, disassembled and re-assembled. After a while of seeing naked human flesh as flesh which just happens to be naked - and raw or soaked or fried or basted in some incident or other --- it might seem that much of the talk about the allure of the flesh is hoo-hah. The perceived gleam of the flesh is a product of the kinks in the mind. Kinks, androgyny, Lola, all in the mind, and what minds we have.
Jul 13th 2013 new
(quote) Gerald-283546 said: Yes!

Definitely, it is Ok for a Christian woman to wear a bikini, in my opinion. The human body is beautiful and to be admired. False modesty or embarrassment about our bodies is a cultural relic of Middle Eastern desert cultures that really makes little sense. Look at the burkahs of sharia law countries now and you will see this embarrassment of the body taken to its extreme. Fear of bikinis is in the same catagory.

The body should be celebrated just as should be the mind and the heart and all the gifts of humanness. We are not Puritans, although clearly some on this site would like to see us revert to Puritanism or a christian form of sharia law. Fine if that's what you want, but not for me.

Of course, there is a time and a place for everything. The term is decorum. One should not wear a bikini to a formal dinner party or to sunday mass. But a bikini on a hot day at the beach, on a boat, swimming or in your back yard is perfectly appropriate in my book.

In fact I see nothing wrong with women going topless in those situations. I've spent time in villages where this was common and women breast fed in public and I thought it was the most natural, beautiful, and heathy thing in the world. In that atmosphere, the false cultural sexual baggage that western culture places on the female breast disappears and it is just physical beauty in the same sense as a leg, and arm or a face, with an appropriate function and lots of variety in form.

I'm reminded of how Jesus handled the cultural baggage of dietary laws in his day. He said that it is not what a man puts into his mouth that defiles him, but rather what come out of his mouth. I think it is the same with the human body. It is not the sight of a human body that defiles a person but rather the mental response...often culturally conditioned, that a man has to the sight. Cultures invented this embarrassment about the body and one can rid oneself of the false attitude by just chosing to do so.

Of course, being a physician, i see lots of bodies and so maybe have a more open minded view of this than more sheltered souls. Still, I think my view is sound. I had it before my training. If you look over most traditional societies, breasts are usually uncovered in warm climates, while the sexual organs are usually covered. This is natural. Breasts are not sexual organs and neither is skin. The area that should be modestly covered and reserved for the husband is indeed rather small.

So, I say, enjoy your bikinis. There are a lot more important issues to worry about! Like what comes out of our mouths :-)


What is "false modesty" regarding not wearing a bikini? What is your definition of modesty?
Jul 13th 2013 new
(quote) Mary-847286 said: Chelsea said that it might be sinful for a woman to refuse to wear a bikini for her husband if he wanted her to.

I say that a woman can refuse to wear a bikini for her husband. Whether the wife is refusing because she doesn't like the way she looks in it, or she feels like an object does not matter. She can say no and not be sinning. My point was that if it were a sin to refuse to dress in a manner that pleases a husband, then women could be put in a position to demean themselves--not that all requests are demeaning.
I agree with you, Mary. Husbands and wives have an obligation to fulfill the "marital duty"; I have never seen anything that suggests the Church teachings on this matter extend to dressing provocatively at the request of one's spouse. In fact, a situation where one spouse expects the other to dress provocatively against their will would seem to involve lust rather than mutual satisfaction -- something that is sinful even within marriage.

Jul 13th 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: Then, I presume, your opinion would also be that it is not immoral to refuse to appear naked for her husband. And Vice Versa, for anyone who might object that I hold one standard for women and another for men.
It would depend on the circumstances. In fact, it might be sinful for one spouse to appear naked before the other if they were knowingly furthering a lustful situation.

From the Catechism, under the heading "Offenses Against Chastity":

2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

www.intratext.com

Note there is no exception for spouses within marriage.



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