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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Jul 16th 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: No one said or implied that a husband should demand anything of his wife that she might find demeaning or vice versa.
Paul, I think Chelsea implied this when she stated it may be immoral if a woman refuse to wear a bikini for her husband, which I also do not agree. If a woman does not want to wear a bikini, her husband should respect that. A woman should be able to choose what she would like to wear. Of course women, admen, should be mature and sensitive enough to know the appropriate clothes for each season/occasion/location. I myself don't mind wearing a bikini. I've worn it in Dubai Marina area and in one of the resorts here in Egypt or in Pattaya, Thailand, where foreigners frequent. I wouldn't wear bikini in my hometown though, where it's not a norm nor if I know I'd be swimming in a place where there's a chance that Muslims or Arabs may be swimming there too. One good example, an American lady sunbathed topless (although was on her stomach) in a secured compound in Kabul, Afghanistan. But there were Afghani cleaners hired in that area, who literally were shocked, but enjoyed the sight nonetheless, after all, it probably was their first - offered for free viewing, that is. The Americans and the rest of us? Disgusted. She should have known better where to go topless, but definitely, not in that compound.
Jul 16th 2013 new
Here is something I am curious about is what would some of you men react if you went to the beach with you date and all of the sudden, to your surprise, she strips down to a bikini in full view of everyone around.
Jul 16th 2013 new
(quote) Elizabeth-114955 said: Here is something I am curious about is what would some of you men react if you went to the beach with you date and all of the sudden, to your surprise, she strips down to a bikini in full view of everyone around.
Allow me to to correct my Question above. I meant to type "how would some of you men react " not "what would some of you men react". I really do not think that it is anyone's business what couples wear in the privacy of their homes for each others pleasure. The reason for my curiosity is that she is supposed to be your eye candy exclusively once you're married. I just want to know how it would go over with you if some other hard bodies lying around got up, walk over to her with an appreciative grins on their faces and started talking to her. After all, for now, she is your date and not your wife and she is being anybodies eye candy if she is displaying it out in public. mischievous
Jul 16th 2013 new
I enjoy seeing women in bikinis, even in dresses, slacks, jeans, or the nuddy. I admit they are not always a pretty sight. It is strictly a womans right to dress as she desires, appropiately to the circumstances she is in. Beauty, modestly and other observations are in the eye of the beholder not the woman. We should all dress for comfort and safety.
As for the hypocrisy of the church in promoting nudity in art , eg the statue of David and countless other naked statues and pictures in the Vatican and other places , and then dressing the clergy and religious orders in some of the most ridiculous and impractical habits. Well, you be the judge!
Jul 17th 2013 new
(quote) Gerald-283546 said: Well, I don't think modesty is about covering up the body in shame. This stems from a false dichotomy between body and spirit where the body was thought to be evil and the spirit holy. In this discredited philosophy, the body was the source of all evil and therefore not to be trusted at best and even shunned at worst. There has been this thread of thought in Christianity all along, but it is not correct and it is not the dominent thread. My understanding of catholic philosophy is that the human is both body and spirit and that both are good. The body is not evil and we do not need to be ashamed about, the myths of Genesis notwithstanding.

In short, modesty is an attitude in your head and not necessarily related to what you are wearing or not wearing in the case of bikinis.


Gerald-

In the beginning Adam and Eve were naked yet felt no shame. After the fall they felt shame and covered their nakedness.In the TOB John Paul II notes pretty clearly notes they cover themselves on account of the shame;

This is the woman's shame with regard to the man, and also the man's with regard to the woman. This mutual shame obliges them to cover their own nakedness, to hide their own bodies, to remove from the man's sight what is the visible sign of femininity, and from the woman's sight what is the visible sign of masculinity. (TOB May 28th, 1980)

This shame though does not (as you note) come from the body. Rather it's from the fear of what we might do to each other now that we are fallen and lust has entered the picture. We in a sense cover ourselves to protect ourselves from each other.

Modesty is a virtue that allows us to be excellent in relationship. It's about what we say, how we act and what we wear. Modesty is gracious. So of course it's important that we have the interior disposition, but their also needs to be an exterior manifestation. Have you ever watched TLC's What not to Wear? Many of the people on the show think they are classy dressers until the hosts set them straight. They have no idea that they are driving others crazy with their wardrobe because the others are being polite. There are others who dress poorly out of a kind of pride, and in the course of the show get humbled, and in getting humbled let others into their life.

No, clothes aren't everything, and I am certainly not advocating blowing large sums of money on a wardrobe (i've got most of my stuff from Thrift!) But I am saying that beauty is based on the truth, and that some clothes are objectively immodest. If a woman has modest thoughts but dresses in an objectively provocative fashion for mass, that's small consolation to the guy who has to focus hard not to fall for a temptation. It's the same thing on the beach or the office...
Jul 17th 2013 new
Bikinis should be off limits to Catholic women. I swim nearly every day at my health club, and most women at the pool there wear one piece swim suits... thankfully. because It is a great distraction to a man when a woman exposes her body unnecessarily in public. If this is how you wish to be seen in public, then you should seriously reconsider your concept of modesty.
Jul 17th 2013 new
(quote) Jim-624621 said: Bikinis should be off limits to Catholic women. I swim nearly every day at my health club, and most women at the pool there wear one piece swim suits... thankfully. because It is a great distraction to a man when a woman exposes her body unnecessarily in public. If this is how you wish to be seen in public, then you should seriously reconsider your concept of modesty.
Most one-piece swim suits aren't that much better than bikinis.

Jul 17th 2013 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: Most one-piece swim suits aren't that much better than bikinis.

Perhaps not, Jerry. But unless American secular society changes over night, we aren't going to be able to completely avoid these obstacles in secular places, and we are going to be exposed to some temptation, and we are going to have to avoid sin as a result.
Jul 17th 2013 new
(quote) Lesil-840134 said: Paul, I think Chelsea implied this when she stated it may be immoral if a woman refuse to wear a bikini for her husband, which I also do not agree. If a woman does not want to wear a bikini, her husband should respect that. A woman should be able to choose what she would like to wear. Of course women, admen, should be mature and sensitive enough to know the appropriate clothes for each season/occasion/location. I myself don't mind wearing a bikini. I've worn it in Dubai Marina area and in one of the resorts here in Egypt or in Pattaya, Thailand, where foreigners frequent. I wouldn't wear bikini in my hometown though, where it's not a norm nor if I know I'd be swimming in a place where there's a chance that Muslims or Arabs may be swimming there too. One good example, an American lady sunbathed topless (although was on her stomach) in a secured compound in Kabul, Afghanistan. But there were Afghani cleaners hired in that area, who literally were shocked, but enjoyed the sight nonetheless, after all, it probably was their first - offered for free viewing, that is. The Americans and the rest of us? Disgusted. She should have known better where to go topless, but definitely, not in that compound.
I have to agree with Chelsea. It could be immoral if a wife refused to wear a bikini for her husband,if the reason for doing so is for a reason other than that she feels it is demeaning, such as "I am mad a you" or you did not give me the mink coat I wanted." or even some frivolous reason. But the operative word is "could". That implies a possibility not a certainty.

Most things and actions in life are neither good nor bad. But they can be bad because of bad intentions or because they are done inappropriately. And vice versa. Your own example of when and where you have or would wear a bikini is a good example.

The mere act of wearing a bikini is neither bad nor good in itself. But wearing one to Church would definitely be sinful.

As Jerry pointed out with his references, even between a husband and wife, sex could be sinful if it is engaged in solely for its own sack without regard for the purposes for which it exists.

So if you wear a bikini solely to flaunt your body, it is sinful.
Jul 17th 2013 new
(quote) Elizabeth-114955 said: Here is something I am curious about is what would some of you men react if you went to the beach with you date and all of the sudden, to your surprise, she strips down to a bikini in full view of everyone around.
Eh, ok,,,(insert name here)... I know that you are very attractive, but would you mind not sharing so much of you with everyone else here? Don't you think that full disclosure could be reserved for private events once you are married? So, could you please put your skirt (preferably -shorts will do) back on for me, please. I like that blouse on you a lot more too. Based on what she did, thus would govern what I would do later.
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