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A place to learn, mingle, and share

This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
Learn More: Saint Augustine

Jul 30th 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: Challenge the Church to grow and develop as God intends?Holy Orders will never develop or change in regard to ordaining women.Acceptance and obedience is a must in this area.Even within your heart.
And I do accept and obey as the Church teaches. My deepest faith is Catholic and actually quite traditional. I pray daily for continual deepening conversion of heart, make no mistake !
Jul 30th 2013 new
(quote) Pamela-880383 said: Perhaps we should make a really simple clarification.

There is a very clear history of the ordination of married men - including Peter - in the Church's history, both in the East and in the West. But neither the Eastern nor the Western Church makes it a tradition to marry ordained men. Even in the Eastern Churches where married men often become priests once a man has received Holy Orders he does not afterwards undergo the sacrament of matrimony. The same goes for deacons in the Western Church or a man who converts and is later ordained. If his spouse dies he does not remarry. And in the East these men never become bishops because of the time commitment involved in being both biological and spiritual fathers.

But because Christ ordained only men - to the exclusion even of the holiest human being on the planet - His Mother - the Church has solemnly declared that she has no authority to ordain women. We need to remember that priesthood is a position of service, not power, and that we are all called to be servants to each other in various ways. Very few people are called to be priests but we are all called to service.
Excellent post!.I agree.
Jul 30th 2013 new
(quote) Christine-960631 said: And I do accept and obey as the Church teaches. My deepest faith is Catholic and actually quite traditional. I pray daily for continual deepening conversion of heart, make no mistake !
theheart God Bless you! I do understand the sentiment that some women feel in regards to Holy Orders.
Jul 30th 2013 new
OH how I wish people understood the proper order of things.

People often think the pope is at the top of the triangle in a hierarchy, with cardinals and bishops under him, then lay people at the bottom, all "oppressing" women. NOT TRUE.

The pope is the servant to the people. He is at the bottom of the inverted triangle- bearing the weight of the world's souls on his shoulders. Above him, the bishops, then priests, then lay men, and women at the top as the crown of creation. Men, when called to the priesthood, have to make a choice, in humility to "lower" themselves in service to the church. For people to say women should be priests is to put them lower than their dignity. They are not called to die on the cross at the altar. It's stamped in their very bodies to be actively receptive, as model of the church. Only man can "initiate" a gift-- as God the Father initiates. It's stamped right into the body. To "inseminate" the church-- the seed to be fruitful. This is out of upholding the dignity of women-- to honor them-- to work for them.


Jul 30th 2013 new
I have never had an issue with men being priests as Jesus taught us by choosing his disciples and setting the course. I feel that most of the issue is questioned because of the distorted view of the sexes equality. Of course men and women are equal in Gods eyes but we are different and thus have different roles to live. God has made women to be mothers and if not actual physical mothers we provide our feminine influence in other areas of our life-with family, in our work etc. Men have a role to play as the provider and head of the family. Throughout the world today many countries that have great faith (such as Africa) have an abundance of priests-we in the United States have not lived our faith as we should hence the decline in vocations. Then there is the paradox of United States traditional orders flourishing in numbers do to their faithful and true love of Jesus. This issue is another one of those topics which are not going to change just because of the lack of vocations due to our lack of love for the faith.
Jul 31st 2013 new
(quote) Carrie-529869 said: OH how I wish people understood the proper order of things.

People often think the pope is at the top of the triangle in a hierarchy, with cardinals and bishops under him, then lay people at the bottom, all "oppressing" women. NOT TRUE.

The pope is the servant to the people. He is at the bottom of the inverted triangle- bearing the weight of the world's souls on his shoulders. Above him, the bishops, then priests, then lay men, and women at the top as the crown of creation. Men, when called to the priesthood, have to make a choice, in humility to "lower" themselves in service to the church. For people to say women should be priests is to put them lower than their dignity. They are not called to die on the cross at the altar. It's stamped in their very bodies to be actively receptive, as model of the church. Only man can "initiate" a gift-- as God the Father initiates. It's stamped right into the body. To "inseminate" the church-- the seed to be fruitful. This is out of upholding the dignity of women-- to honor them-- to work for them.


Carrie, That is beautiful.
Jul 31st 2013 new
(quote) Philip-600116 said: Greetings

While I have always been an advocate for the Natural Law of God: that being Man should not be alone therefore God made Woman from the rib of Adam, therefore Gods desire for that sacred union should not be thwarted. Yes Priests should be married. Celebacy should be voluntary not demanded

Another solution to the Priest shortage is to Ordain Women. Another position I think should be available for Women.

I know several Women Priests and they have families while performing their duties in their respective Churches.

Consider that in the time of Jesus the culture was to keep women in the background. Servents if you will. It was in about the 14th century guided by St Richard that the Church changed the marrage regulation for the basireason that the assets of the Priest would go to the Church rather than to the widow and family. Again the woman became a second class citizen of the Church

What say you?
Pope John Paul II, infallibly stated that the Church cannot (ever) ordain women priests.

It is not true that the rulke of celibacy was instigated so that the priest's property would go to the Church when the priest died.

First of all Priests who were monks were always celibate.

Diocesan priests, were the ones who married.They never, just like today,took a vow of poverty and their possession always then and it is still true today, pass to whomever they wish it to go.

To the extent that a financial reason similar to this existed for the instituting the rule of celibacy it was because priests were passing Church property to their heirs. So in the limited sense, it put an end to that abuse.

In reality, women have always had an honored position in the Church.
Jul 31st 2013 new
(quote) Sandra-871852 said: Marriage is a vocation and Holy Orders is a vocation. There is a conflict of interest. I have a Lutheran friend who is a pastor and I see how the obligations with family,finances, marriage, children puts him in compromising pastoral positions. His vocation of marriage saps his time and efforts for his flock and parish and vice versa. Both vocations take lots of time, love, energy and faith.

Hi, Sandra.

You bring up two different points: conflict of interest (where simply being married, by itself, is an impediment to priesthood) and time commitment. It's worth looking at the two as distinct things.

It may very well be the case that, for some people, marriage and the priesthood are each demanding enough, and neither energizing enough, to force a choice one way or the other. But surely we could say the same about any other life-long commitments: I would imagine being both a police officer and a single parent would be difficult.

But for other people, hearing a call to both marriage and ordination can be complementary. Having a supportive spouse and children may prove to be a great blessing for a priest with many other demands.

If anyone asked, I'd guess that you don't think being married is an impediment to our deacons, who are sometimes tasked with just as demanding a schedule as some priests.

I agree with you that being a priest and eligible for marriage would likely be a conflict of interest. How do you minister to a woman if you might end up dating her? But I don't see the same with being an already-married priest, the same restrictions our deacons operate under now.

Someone with better information than I can correct me, but my studies in medieval history suggest that one reason that the Council forbade priests from marrying was an entirely practical one: to avoid wealthy priests from having legitimate heirs.

Peace be with you all.
Jul 31st 2013 new
Francis Bacon said in one of his essays, when referring to celibacy, that it was hard to water the garden when you had to fill a pool.

Man and Woman become Husband and Wife for pro-creative purposes, and naturally Priests would now have to take care of children too which would take away from their ability to care for the parishioners with their full attention if they're worrying about their family and children.

Another Catholic reason for celibacy would be to prevent speculation on the use of formal methods of birth control to account for a possible smaller family size of priests.

I know it is a rather unpopular topic among orthodox Catholics who tow the line as far as the teachings on ethics and morality goes, but I have to say that the modern world that we live in has become rather difficult to live in as far as economics goes; with rent prices being as high as they are, food prices going up, the increase in taxes and the smaller pay checks and shorter work week thanks to the new healthcare program, it is becoming very difficult for the average man and woman who have been brought together by fate to follow the proper protocols of engagement and marriage before living together under the same roof with budgets being the way they are and the lack of money for everything, including the marriage ceremony and ritual. In principle I support the church's stance on cohabitation, however I do feel as though the modern world is making life extraordinarily difficult for those who try to continue to play by all of the established rules.

Jul 31st 2013 new
(quote) Zachary-948066 said: I know it is a rather unpopular topic among orthodox Catholics who tow the line as far as the teachings on ethics and morality goes, but I have to say that the modern world that we live in has become rather difficult to live in as far as economics goes; with rent prices being as high as they are, food prices going up, the increase in taxes and the smaller pay checks and shorter work week thanks to the new healthcare program, it is becoming very difficult for the average man and woman who have been brought together by fate to follow the proper protocols of engagement and marriage before living together under the same roof with budgets being the way they are and the lack of money for everything, including the marriage ceremony and ritual. In principle I support the church's stance on cohabitation, however I do feel as though the modern world is making life extraordinarily difficult for those who try to continue to play by all of the established rules.

Sharing living costs among roommates (especially more than one) is an EASY way for each person in the relationship to NOT cohabitate. This saves on furniture, gadgets such as TVs, DVD/BluRay players and anything else in the common rooms in the house. All bills can be divided and shared equally.

"The lack of money for everything" ?
As in what you want or what you need ?
Creativity in the relationship can overcome many of the difficulties in finding things to do that do not cost money.

I am in no way trying to indicate that things are easy in this economy, but to use the economy as a scapegoat as to a reason for shacking up just seems like a cop out to me personally.

But I have probably drifted too far off topic that I will end this post here :)
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