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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Aug 7th 2013 new
(quote) Marianne-100218 said: It gets tiring listening to people second guess everything that went on in days
past.

These same people would not be second guessing anything if we spoke
Japanese now.

And not everyone who was responsible for the decision to drop the bomb
had allegiance to the Pope.

Yes, it was a heinous use of force at the time, but it seems the world has
learned many lessons from that act, in addition to ending a brutal war.

An enemy that is trying to kill you is to be taken seriously, especially an
enemy with the scruples of the Japanese at that time. The whole
earth and its inhabitants were worn out from the years of battle. Putting
an end to WW2 was a good thing.
The Japanese were expended beyond the ability to continue the war much further after their attack on Pearl Harbour. It was only a matter of short time before they were completely out of fuel and other resources. Japan depends upon imports (even to today) from outlying lands for almost everything on the mainland. There is no way that the Japanese would have attempted any invasion of the USA. It was well known at the time that the Japanese feared marching on US soil due to the general wide-spreaded-ness of firearms in the American home.

The only reason that we made the attack on Japan with the atom bombs was to crush the Japanese after their attack on Pearl Harbour, not as a last ditch effort to end the war. Even if it was to end the war, Catholic doctrine teaches us that the end DOES NOT justify the means.

The Japanese weren't geared up for any further attack past Pearl Harbour...in fact...it's reported that the Pearl Harbour attack was to appear not to eager in the course of its surrender.

I've been to Hiroshima. I've seen evidence of the destruction wrought. My grandfather was nearby where the bombs were dropped in Japan...and he said that the destruction was just plain disgusting and devastating. He said that people were walking around alive with their skin hanging off of them and worse...and that he shared, like many of the Japanese who were hit with the heavy radiation, the death of his thyroid and subsequent radiation related illnesses. He lost all his teeth eventually.

How do you ever justify vaporizing people...and not giving them the chance to have recourse to a priest for last rites??
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Aug 7th 2013 new
(quote) Chelsea-743484 said: This is the same logic employed to hand Jesus Christ over to Pontius Pilate to be crucified:

"But one of them, named Caiphas, being the high priest that year, said to them: You know nothing. Neither do you consider that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. And this he spoke not of himself: but being the high priest of that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation." John 11:49-51

It is not "more good" to kill one person versus killing ten. There may be a lesser evil, but that doesn't turn the evil into a good. However, there is never a lesser evil involved in committing an evil with the hope of a resultant good.




Jesus was going to be handed over for death because of your sins; Caiaphas and Pilate might have chosen the date, time, and place, but their culpability is because of their sins, not the aforementioned logic.
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Aug 7th 2013 new
(quote) Chelsea-743484 said: The Japanese were expended beyond the ability to continue the war much further after their attack on Pearl Harbour. It was only a matter of short time before they were completely out of fuel and other resources. Japan depends upon imports (even to today) from outlying lands for almost everything on the mainland. There is no way that the Japanese would have attempted any invasion of the USA. It was well known at the time that the Japanese feared marching on US soil due to the general wide-spreaded-ness of firearms in the American home.

The only reason that we made the attack on Japan with the atom bombs was to crush the Japanese after their attack on Pearl Harbour, not as a last ditch effort to end the war. Even if it was to end the war, Catholic doctrine teaches us that the end DOES NOT justify the means.

The Japanese weren't geared up for any further attack past Pearl Harbour...in fact...it's reported that the Pearl Harbour attack was to appear not to eager in the course of its surrender.

I've been to Hiroshima. I've seen evidence of the destruction wrought. My grandfather was nearby where the bombs were dropped in Japan...and he said that the destruction was just plain disgusting and devastating. He said that people were walking around alive with their skin hanging off of them and worse...and that he shared, like many of the Japanese who were hit with the heavy radiation, the death of his thyroid and subsequent radiation related illnesses. He lost all his teeth eventually.

How do you ever justify vaporizing people...and not giving them the chance to have recourse to a priest for last rites??
This fails to address what would have happened in Korea or Japan had the Russians been allowed to conquer and rape those areas, as the Russians had done in Manchuria after they entered the war.

Even if it was to end the war, Catholic doctrine teaches us that the end DOES NOT justify the means.

The problem is you have failed to counter the belief that the ends would have been a lot worse had we not dropped the bombs. I could easily believe that the opposition to dropping the bombs sees "not dropping the bomb" as the end and the suffering of all of Japan and Korea as the means to achieve those ends.
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Aug 7th 2013 new
(quote) Alex-789274 said: Jesus was going to be handed over for death because of your sins; Caiaphas and Pilate might have chosen the date, time, and place, but their culpability is because of their sins, not the aforementioned logic.
I'm not sure I understand the position you are expressing here. Are you claiming Caiaphas and Pilate were not personally culpable for their roles in sentencing an innocent man (Christ) to death?

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Aug 7th 2013 new
Having heard all the pros and cons over my lifetime, I believe dropping the bomb was the right thing to do at that time.
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Aug 7th 2013 new
(quote) Alex-789274 said: It is like asking which is better: killing 1 person or killing 10.
To which the correct answer is neither, since both, directly willed, are evil acts and must not be done. Sin offends the infinite God infinitely, as we see in David's penitential prayer, Psalm 51:

To thee only have I sinned, and have done evil before thee:

This, because the offense given God was so great that the offense to Uriah, who he killed, or Bathsheba, who he dishonored, were as nothing in comparison, according to the writer of "the Sinner's Guide."

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Aug 7th 2013 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: I'm not sure I understand the position you are expressing here. Are you claiming Caiaphas and Pilate were not personally culpable for their roles in sentencing an innocent man (Christ) to death?

I am claiming their culpability is because of all of their sins. Caiaphas I believe was driven by envy and pride but used the aforementioned logic to push Pilate to the decision. I believe Pilate was caught in a bad position, though he definitely had sinned at other times and places.

It should be mentioned that I crucified Jesus by my sins; I dislike it when people view somebody other than themselves as responsible for Jesus's Crucifixion.
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Aug 7th 2013 new
(quote) Alex-789274 said: The problem is you have failed to counter the belief that the ends would have been a lot worse had we not dropped the bombs. I could easily believe that the opposition to dropping the bombs sees "not dropping the bomb" as the end and the suffering of all of Japan and Korea as the means to achieve those ends.
She doesn't need to address that possibility. Your counter argument fails because not dropping the atomic weapons is neither an end nor an act. The suffering of the Japanese and Korean people was/would have been the outcome of other acts; the suffering is not itself an act.


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Aug 7th 2013 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: She doesn't need to address that possibility. Your counter argument fails because not dropping the atomic weapons is neither an end nor an act. The suffering of the Japanese and Korean people was/would have been the outcome of other acts; the suffering is not itself an act.


It must be noted that I said, "I could easily believe", not that I actually do. The reason I bring it up, is that most of the arguments I have seen to date focus on the actual act and appear to ignore what could have happened had the bombs not been dropped. When the possible consequences of not dropping the bombs is raised, the response is, "The ends do not justify the means." My problem with using this as a response is that it raises the question of what your objective is.
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Aug 7th 2013 new
(quote) Alex-789274 said: I am claiming their culpability is because of all of their sins. Caiaphas I believe was driven by envy and pride but used the aforementioned logic to push Pilate to the decision. I believe Pilate was caught in a bad position, though he definitely had sinned at other times and places.

It should be mentioned that I crucified Jesus by my sins; I dislike it when people view somebody other than themselves as responsible for Jesus's Crucifixion.
Their other sins are not relevant to the moral analysis of the acts directly related to the sentencing and execution of Christ.

Your sins are not responsible for crucifying Christ: after the original sin, His crucifixion was a given unless all humans were to barred from heaven. The impact of our individual sins is to add to the suffering He experienced prior to His death.

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