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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Aug 16th 2013 new
Hi Marianne, just something to add to John's solid points : historyofrussia.org . Quite an upgrade from the Poles vs Red Army mess years earlier.
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Aug 17th 2013 new
Some things to consider in this 'Staring at Hiroshima from Babel' Forum:

-Nobody has even mentioned Babel which is Nineveh, Babylon, Uruk, Ur which is still there if anyone wants to fly over there and have an archaeological/museum tour and see where Abraham & Sarah started out, Alexander the Great after conquering the known World and coming back from India & Afghanistan was poisoned in his late 20's, Assyria Fell, Israelites were captive, Daniel so impressed the King that he rebuilt the Temple of Jerusalem, Antiochus Epiphanes II, second generation tyrant brat destroyed the Persians and placed the gold statue of Zeus in the 'Holy of Holies and drove the surviving Rabbis into hiding on the Western cave lined shores of the Dead Sea, the rise of Islam, European colonization and Saddam Hussein raged and was hanged to death
-Various 'Barbaric acts of Genghis Khan Tamerlane, two Corporals Napoleon & Hitler with 'Humane guillotining of royals and priests'/nuns that left Anarchy with Napoleon as the masses desired.
-60,000,000 dead from WW-II as Hitler & Hirohito's pact resulted in with secret plans by both sides planning to exterminate the other if victorious. Plus the 'Bonus Lesson' from Japanese documents of contingency plans if they were to lose. World Wars III & IV and we did modernize them to one of the top economies in the World. Plus the 21 centuries of Hirohito's being accepted as the Divine Living god from a continuous 400 generations from Jimmu and the Sun goddess as well as his grandfather planning it all with the German Kaiser.
-Failure to take MacArthur's advice to stop Mao who killed 40,000,000 of his own citizens, not to forget Stalin's purges of 30,000,000.
-45,000 various sized thermonuclear weapons stockpiled during the 'Cold War'
-All of you are Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians that are in communion with Rome and I was anxious to hear some new information that would show the external viewers that we are unified with at least Hope in fulfilling God's 'Purpose & Reason' as stated n Genesis 2 that we Unite in the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony with Christ's additional Commandment, that gives God the Father the sole thing that he asks, 'which is to love one another for the love of God' ; and I hear as to how none of you are getting anywhere in this basic effort that requires 'Free Will' and just some effort to unite and set an example that may save our Nation. I will end my night with completing my Rosary and feeding this impatient cat named 'Miss Kitty' who indicates that she likes some of the feline photos on Catholic Match but they mention no names or gender.
-Remember the echo of the Od Town Chapel in Vilnius, Lithuania where Sister Faustina Kowalska had her apparitions and told us, 'Jesus We Trust In You' and Jon Paul II's, 'Be Not Afraid !'

Good Night & God Bless all of You,
JCK
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Aug 17th 2013 new
(quote) Bernie-645443 said: Hi Marianne, just something to add to John's solid points : http://historyofrussia.org/khalkhin-gol-battle-nomonhan/ . Quite an upgrade from the Poles vs Red Army mess years earlier.
That was an excellent article on the battle. I had no idea that Japan fought
there. For such a small land-massed country, Japan had high aspirations.
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Aug 17th 2013 new
You are right, John. There is no progression from Babel to Hiroshima
on this forum. Why, I do not know.
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Aug 17th 2013 new
(quote) Bernie-645443 said: Hi Marianne, just something to add to John's solid points : http://historyofrussia.org/khalkhin-gol-battle-nomonhan/ . Quite an upgrade from the Poles vs Red Army mess years earlier.
Where you been, Bernie? Hadn't heard from you in STM in quite a long time.
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Aug 17th 2013 new
Hi Marianne, work, work, work. Lots of loooooong days.
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Aug 20th 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: Again without taking a position pro or con on the basic issue under discussion;

The obvious answer to the last question which leaves you disturbed is that in 1937 we were not at war with Japan and had not been asked by either Korea or China to come to their aid. We were supplying material aid to China. Even going so far as allowing, contrary to US law, our Air men to volunteer to fly as armed combatants (without automatic forfeiture of their US citizenship) with the Chinese Air Force, (which was virtually non-existent) via the unit known as the Flying Tigers. That unit was 100% American except for Chinese support troops suuplying infantry protection to the Air fields from which the unit operated and Chinese labor for other support services. The Americans provided their own repair personnel and other ground crews.

Even after September of 1939 we did not enter the war in Europe. We did supply aid to the English at their request. Even when Germany initiated unrestricted U Boat warfare against any ship supplying aid to Britain to enforce their embargo against Britain which they intended to invade, we did not formerly enter the European conflict but only authorized self defense action by our vessels. We also signaled our displeasure at Germany's action by refusing officially to provide them any material that would aid them in their war effort.

One could argue that by these actions, we did signal that given sufficiant reason we would enter the war against Germany.

Japan and Germany entered into a formal alliance. So when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, we formerly entered into a state of war with that nation and her allies. Ergo, unlike 1937 when we were not at war with Japan, in 1945 we were. That provided us with the legal authority to conduct any war operations against Japan.

Again, it may have provided us with legal authority but says nothing about the moral authority or lack thereof for the dropping of the bombs.

Several people have argued potential options available. To properly answer all the ramifications under any of the proposed options would require a lot more space time and effort than is available here.

The most telling moral argument against the use of the bombs is the one about not being allowed to commit an intrinsic moral evil even to accomplish a good end. There could exist any number of potential situations and telling arguments made for allowing the act on the basis of double effect.

I personally won't go there to even try to argue one or the other side on that issue.

On the issue of the use of the bombs, since I have no responsibility for either making that decision nor being called on to adjudicate the issue, I understand and accept both side of the argument as being valid and rational. If they ever foolishly make me Pope, I would then make a pronouncement.


some people are in positions of responsibility with very heavy decisions to make. a leader couldn't be a leader if he/she stressed and fussed about the fact that actions to save lives are thought to be moral or immoral by people who live relatively safe lives.
Thank God for those who have had to make heartwrenching and brutal decisions to protect the United states and many other great countries.
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Aug 20th 2013 new
(quote) Marianne-100218 said: There were many catholic SS soldiers in Germany. What they did was
atrocious. Did they consult with the Pope before they exterminated
6 million people of a certain religion? I don't think so.

If every head of state consulted the Pope before a war, that would mean
the Pope was running the war. And not all wars are fought by Catholics.

Theology is a great discipline. Actually a noble one. But religion is in
the hearts of man. War is ugly and cruel and when exposed to its
devastation over long periods of time, the mind, the body, and the
country become weary and more desperate and fighting becomes
instinctual. What was rational at the start of the war may not seem
so at the end. That is the reality of putting rational men into irrational
situations, and judging them with standards used by men sitting in a
safe place after the true treat is over and done with.

Theory is one thing but fighting is another. And letting others do
your fighting for you and then criticizing them for their effort is
not a noble gesture.

People may not be a clump as you suggest, but the sides drawn in
a world war certainly are.

And those soldiers who lost their lives and then reevaluate what they did
in a reflection in a mirror, after the fog of war has lifted, will certainly
regret having killed any living thing. But then war is all about stopping
a brutal enemy from killing your most beloved. And that is what those
soldiers were attempting.





There were many catholic SS soldiers in Germany. What they did was atrocious. Did they consult with the Pope before they exterminated 6 million people of a certain religion? I don't think so.

There are many baptised Catholics who don't behave as Catholics should. What does this have to do with the thread topic?

If every head of state consulted the Pope before a war, that would mean the Pope was running the war.

Or there would be no wars.

War is ugly and cruel and when exposed to its devastation over long periods of time, the mind, the body, and the
country become weary and more desperate and fighting becomes instinctual. What was rational at the start of the war may not seem so at the end. That is the reality of putting rational men into irrational situations, and judging them with standards used by men sitting in a safe place after the true treat is over and done with.

There is sin and there is the mortal or venial culpability for sin. What you are talking about above is how men in an irrational situation should be judged. Judging the state of a soul is something only God knows how to do. Of two men who participated in the same situation, one may be judged to have sinned mortally while the other to have sinned only venially. However, judging the sinfulness of a situation is an ability that he has passed to the teaching authority of his Church. If he hadn't done this, the Church would not be able to warn its children ahead of time about falling into sin. The Church would not be able to teach its children about how not to fall into sin. The Pope has the perspicacity to warn heads of state about the risks of sin in projects upon which they seek to embark.

Theory is one thing but fighting is another. And letting others do your fighting for you and then criticizing them for their effort is not a noble gesture.

Who's talking about 'fighting'? The topic is about a particular episode in the war, an episode of 'bombing' that occurred inside a general situation of 'fighting'. It's the lack of precision in political discourse, whether from looseness of logic or from the malicious intent to conflate words so as to win brownie points, that generates all heat and no light. We're not talking about fighting Japanese soldiers on land or sea; we're talking about bombing Japanese civilians (including a goodly number of your Nagasaki sisters and brothers from the House of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob).

If the theory was followed, there most probably would be no bombing. The Just War Theory has been known for a long time, and certainly many hundreds of years before the bombings. Hate the sin but love the sinner. Nobody is criticising the moral quality of the 'others' who planned and executed the bombings. It is the moral quality of the bombings that is being questioned.

And those soldiers who lost their lives and then reevaluate what they did in a reflection in a mirror, after the fog of war has lifted, will certainly regret having killed any living thing. But then war is all about stopping a brutal enemy from killing your most beloved. And that is what those soldiers were attempting.

War is not all about stopping a brutal enemy from killing your most beloved. If that was the case, Peter would not have been told to put his sword back in his scabbard and the high priest's servant's severed ear would not have been reattached to the head from which it was dislodged. War can be permitted for reasons of self-defence (but not always, as the incident in the Garden of Gethsemane shows). Was it necessary in self-defence to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Now it may be the case that it was but good reasons need to be shown (ie. reasons good enough to justify obliterating primary targets that were almost exclusively civilians.)



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Aug 20th 2013 new

Not all wars in which America participated deserved to be won by the American side. Would the Kaiser winning the First World War have hurt the liberty and freedom of the average Briton, let alone that of the average American? If there is such a thing somewhere as the alternative universe crystal ball, it might show how bad it was that the Kaiser lost. A strong Kaiser would have kept his relative the Czar on his throne. Without a Soviet Union as a practical and philosophical beacon for Communism, would there have been a Communist China? A Communist Cuba? Vietnam?

Of course, the Kaiser shouldn't have started the war, and if he had consulted the Pope, he might not have done so. I don't know how this would have affected the Communist movement but the Ottomans would still be running what is now Israel and there would be no jihadists flying planes into skyscrapers.

See what war brings?

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Aug 20th 2013 new
(quote) Roystan-340472 said:

Not all wars in which America participated deserved to be won by the American side. Would the Kaiser winning the First World War have hurt the liberty and freedom of the average Briton, let alone that of the average American? If there is such a thing somewhere as the alternative universe crystal ball, it might show how bad it was that the Kaiser lost. A strong Kaiser would have kept his relative the Czar on his throne. Without a Soviet Union as a practical and philosophical beacon for Communism, would there have been a Communist China? A Communist Cuba? Vietnam?

Of course, the Kaiser shouldn't have started the war, and if he had consulted the Pope, he might not have done so. I don't know how this would have affected the Communist movement but the Ottomans would still be running what is now Israel and there would be no jihadists flying planes into skyscrapers.

See what war brings?

Wars are not won by people sitting behind their laptops criticizing others
for going out and doing their dirty job.

Your doctrine about war is well and good, but you are trying to take one incident
out of a context. If that is your goal, so be it.

Australians fought right beside Americans and were among the best military.
They were from a different generation, and the kick back of all the fighting
they endured, allowed the subsequent generation to be peace activists.

In catholic school I learned that no one knows how a person will be
judged at the final hour. It is futile to even discuss that individual
event.
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