Faith Focused Dating. Create your Free Profile and meet your Match!

A place to learn, mingle, and share

This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
Learn More:Saint Thomas More

Aug 9th 2013 new
(quote) Marianne-100218 said: I think you forget that almost all of the Japanese still on the mainland were
ready to take up arms against any invasion of their homeland. So these
are not innocent bystanders.

Unfortunately it took two atomic bombs for the Japanese to stop fighting.
That shows their tenacity.

I think it is time that you put the many years of fighting in Europe that led
up to WW2 and the War years themselves in perspective. The culmination
of the war with Japan by use of the atomic bomb is but one myopic part of a
very long and brutal conflict between many nations and involving the loss
of millions of lives.

The use of the atomic bomb was extreme. Now the world knows the
destructive and devastating power it contains. And lessons seem to
have been learned from it. Every arm-chair quarterback can easily sit
back and take aim at things that happened while they were safe and
sound from the war. But that is the point, they were not in the thick
of things or in harms way when the decisions were made.

What happened, happened, and we should all be thankful that we
were on the winning side and be thankful for all those men and women
who helped to put us in that position. I am and you should be too.

Marianne,

When the RAF under the command of Arthur "Bomber" Harris was engaged in the terror-bombing of German cities, the US specifically (and with few exceptions) chose instead to target miltary targets such as munitions factories; this was completely in-line with the teachings of the Church regarding Just War Doctrine.

The US knew the difference between bombing soft and hard targets quite well.

During the firebombing of Tokyo in March of 1945, waves of B-29s loaded with napalm flew in at altitudes of several thousand feet and dropped them on the city. The aircrews in the planes flying later in the raid described hitting a wall of heat and having their planes thrown forcefully upwards from the heat blast. They could smell burning FLESH in the planes. www.themilitant.com

If one does not have a problem with this, I simply don't have enough patience to argue the point. If someone does not believe that the Catholic Church forbids such actions under the strongest possible terms, then that person has nothing more than an abstract idea of what Caholicism is.

Marianne, anyone who has had an immediate family member who served in that war is going to have their views influenced by that person; this may or may not be your situation. I believe that when the last family member of the last WWII veteran dies, the country will be able to discuss our actions in that war with candor, because then we will be discussing the subject analytically, and not emotionally.

LOCKED
Aug 9th 2013 new
(quote) William-607613 said: Marianne,

When the RAF under the command of Arthur "Bomber" Harris was engaged in the terror-bombing of German cities, the US specifically (and with few exceptions) chose instead to target miltary targets such as munitions factories; this was completely in-line with the teachings of the Church regarding Just War Doctrine.

The US knew the difference between bombing soft and hard targets quite well.

During the firebombing of Tokyo in March of 1945, waves of B-29s loaded with napalm flew in at altitudes of several thousand feet and dropped them on the city. The aircrews in the planes flying later in the raid described hitting a wall of heat and having their planes thrown forcefully upwards from the heat blast. They could smell burning FLESH in the planes. http://www.themilitant.com/2005/6912/691255.html

If one does not have a problem with this, I simply don't have enough patience to argue the point. If someone does not believe that the Catholic Church forbids such actions under the strongest possible terms, then that person has nothing more than an abstract idea of what Caholicism is.

Marianne, anyone who has had an immediate family member who served in that war is going to have their views influenced by that person; this may or may not be your situation. I believe that when the last family member of the last WWII veteran dies, the country will be able to discuss our actions in that war with candor, because then we will be discussing the subject analytically, and not emotionally.

Analyzing all the battles of WW2 from a military perspective is one thing. But
to condemn our entire nation's involvement in WW2 because of what went on
in Japan at the very end of the war ignores all the sacrifices made of a nation
that was initially attacked.

You can loose your patience with anyone you want, but until each bombing
is put into context of the larger and longer war, the true picture of those
war years will never be achieved. And America will look like the big
bad nation for future generations.

Yes, they were brutal, and who can deny that, but Japan was a formidable
and unrelenting enemy. Ridding the world of that war machine became
the means of ending the violence.
LOCKED
Aug 9th 2013 new
(quote) Marianne-100218 said: Analyzing all the battles of WW2 from a military perspective is one thing. But
to condemn our entire nation's involvement in WW2 because of what went on
in Japan at the very end of the war ignores all the sacrifices made of a nation
that was initially attacked.

You can loose your patience with anyone you want, but until each bombing
is put into context of the larger and longer war, the true picture of those
war years will never be achieved. And America will look like the big
bad nation for future generations.

Yes, they were brutal, and who can deny that, but Japan was a formidable
and unrelenting enemy. Ridding the world of that war machine became
the means of ending the violence.
Nobody's condemning this country's involvement in the Second World War. There is no question that the United States and the Allies were justified in fighting the Axis Powers; nobody disputes that. (After the Germans invaded Poland, the Vatican itself signaled the Allies that a line had been crossed, and that the requirements for a just war had been met.)

Pope Pius XII later went on to excoriate the Allies for their bombing campaigns against German and Italian cities.

The two positions are not contradictory. I may be justified in defending myself in a fight, but I am not justified in shooting my opponent once he is bleeding and lying down on his back. If I do shoot him, I will (properly) be charged with his death, regardless of how gallantly I fought up until the time I pulled the trigger (and regardless of how long and hard he may have fought me).

The US role in targeting civilian population centers certainly taints our image as a country in that war (although Americans seem to be the last to recognize this), but it does not call into question the valor of those who fought and died throughout for those four years.

Our role as Catholics is more important than our role as Americans; our witness is to the Truth, not to a flag. It is incumbent upon all of us to keep this in mind, and to remember the words of Saint Thomas More (patron of this forum), as he pointed out before his execution, that he "died the king's good servant, but God's FIRST."





LOCKED
Aug 9th 2013 new
First let me say war is hell. And I thank all who have served in war snd peace time. On several islands I believe Siapan and definitley Okinawa there were many Japanese civilian suicides. If America had needed to invade snd conquerr Japan with troops many many more civilians would have died. So doing the math many times more civilians dying via conventional warfare/suicide is better than 2 nukes. Okinawa was the 2nd bloodiest battle in Ww2 for America. And it is very small compared to the big islands of Japan. American losses were expected to be 100,000 dead and 1million wounded. If the concern is with loss of life doing the math the bombs were by far the more humane way to go.
LOCKED
Aug 9th 2013 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: May I remind you that we left the head of that "militaristic, war mongering government" in place, namely, the Emperor Hirohito, along with the Diet and the Prime Minister. Other than the limitation of the military to a "Self-Defense Force" (that is the name of their defense forces, BTW), the form of Japanese government stayed more or less the same.

The civilian part of the government was in favor of ending the war; however, because of peculiarities in the Japanese government at the time, the military was capable of vetoing a peace deal.
LOCKED
Aug 9th 2013 new
(quote) John-559440 said:  American losses were expected to be 100,000 dead and 1million wounded. If the concern is with loss of life doing the math the bombs were by far the more humane way to go.
John,

We're trying to reconcile the dropping of an atomic bomb on a Japanese city with Catholic Just War doctrine, and unfortunately, there is no room anywhere in Church teaching to justify targeting a civilian population center and destroying it. Murder is an intrinsic evil; it can never be done, and no good can ever come out of it.

The Catholic teaching on Just War was embraced by nations over the centuries because everyone recognized the need to protect non-combatants. During WWII, the Allies threw this teaching out of the window; the non-combatants became the targets.

There is nothing anywhere in Church teaching that would justify your position on the subject.
LOCKED
Aug 9th 2013 new
(quote) Alex-789274 said: The civilian part of the government was in favor of ending the war; however, because of peculiarities in the Japanese government at the time, the military was capable of vetoing a peace deal.
Alex,

The point is that, as pointed out elsewhere, deliberate murder of the innocent under the justification of total war is still an intrinsic evil. You are still throwing the teaching of the Church about Just Warfare out the window.

If done because the belligerent nation is considered "subhuman," then the crime is all the worse.
LOCKED
Aug 9th 2013 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: Alex,

The point is that, as pointed out elsewhere, deliberate murder of the innocent under the justification of total war is still an intrinsic evil. You are still throwing the teaching of the Church about Just Warfare out the window.

If done because the belligerent nation is considered "subhuman," then the crime is all the worse.
The following
The civilian part of the government was in favor of ending the war; however, because of peculiarities in the Japanese government at the time, the military was capable of vetoing a peace deal.

was in response to

May I remind you that we left the head of that "militaristic, war mongering government" in place, namely, the Emperor Hirohito, along with the Diet and the Prime Minister. Other than the limitation of the military to a "Self-Defense Force" (that is the name of their defense forces, BTW), the form of Japanese government stayed more or less the same.

I fail to see where (in any post on this thread), I have claimed that the Japanese were subhuman.
LOCKED
Aug 10th 2013 new
(quote) William-607613 said: John,

We're trying to reconcile the dropping of an atomic bomb on a Japanese city with Catholic Just War doctrine, and unfortunately, there is no room anywhere in Church teaching to justify targeting a civilian population center and destroying it. Murder is an intrinsic evil; it can never be done, and no good can ever come out of it.

The Catholic teaching on Just War was embraced by nations over the centuries because everyone recognized the need to protect non-combatants. During WWII, the Allies threw this teaching out of the window; the non-combatants became the targets.

There is nothing anywhere in Church teaching that would justify your position on the subject.
Of course Catholic teaching ould say the bomb is against the Churches teaching.

Is the rest of this thread saying was America evil for dropping it?
LOCKED
Aug 10th 2013 new
(quote) John-559440 said: Of course Catholic teaching ould say the bomb is against the Churches teaching.

Is the rest of this thread saying was America evil for dropping it?
Well John, it's more complex than that; we don't use such a broad brush and describe an entire country's citizenry so easily, and I haven't seen anyone here do so.

Members of the United States Army Air Force committed acts of mass murder during the Second World War as a matter of military policy; the two acts that are the most well-known are the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Were the acts evil? Yes. As I pointed out, murder is an intrinsic evil; as such, it is never allowed. There is no "lesser of two evils" allowed, if the lesser evil is an intrinsic evil.

Was the country evil? Those who planned and ordered the acts, as well as those who carried them out would certainly be guilty of committing murder, although the actual extent of their culpability might differ, depending upon their understanding of the gravity of the actions being carried out. (Here, I am thinking of the members of the B-29 crews who participated in the different firebombings of Japanese cities. Did a gunner on one of the planes who was assigned to a mission at the last minute really know what was going on? I don't know.)

(Think of who might have been on trial had the Japanese won the war. By his own admission, Curtis Le May, commander of the Tenth Bomber Group, would have been charged with war crimes.)

But does this make the country evil? No, and for the same reason that the actions of the Japanese soldiers in mainland China did not make all of Japan a fair target to bomb indiscriminately: we are still required to adhere to the teachings of the just war doctrine, one of which is to discern between combatants and non-combatants when using military force.

LOCKED
Posts 41 - 50 of 189