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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
Learn More:Saint Athanasius

Aug 25th 2013 new
Your words are making me think Chelsea. Thank you for elucidating your view. I have matters to pray over for further discernment.
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Aug 25th 2013 new
(quote) Chelsea-743484 said: Apostate is not synonymous with invalid claimant to the Petrine Throne. Apostasy (like any mortal sin) does not depose the Supreme Pontiff, as no successor of St. Peter was promised impeccability, and there is no higher earthly authority than the Pope. St. Bonaventure states quite clearly in his Breviloquium that the institution of Christ's Church is upon authority and not faith or charity, as no ecclesiastic himself can even know with an infallible certitude (barring a singular divine revelation) whether he is worthy of love or of wrath. This is in Our Lord's own words of institution to Peter as the foundation upon which He'd build His Church, not Peter's faith or charity. He gave Peter the right to command obedience and the ability to teach ex cathedra infallibly, not withdrew his ability to sin.
That is correct, which is why it is reported that popes receive confession at least weekly. That was reported, I think, in the case of Pope John Paul II.

They are most aware of their position of service.
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Aug 25th 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: You're wrong John.It is about winning.Good over evil.Souls are at stake.The facts are all here too.Fatima.Org
There is another angle to the Consecration of the World over Russia, as requested. It may seem a greater act of piety than the later, and can be shown to be acceptable to God as is, but it is still not obedience and may not end well for those that suggested this course (I know not who, and it is not important for this).

May I suggest that people read 1st Samuel (read as 1st Kings in the Douay-Rheims Bible), Chapter 15. In that, King Saul is commanded to destroy Amalec and all its goods and cattle, that is to say, place it under anathema. He destroys the city, but takes the best of the cattle and the king to Gilgal to offer the beasts as sacrifices.

Samuel, however, goes up to tell Saul that, because of his disobedience in the matter, the kingship is removed from him and given to another. In Saul's mind, he thought he was offering a greater act of piety by sacrifice, but it turns out that in reality he was displaying his own self-perceived greatness instead of God's justice (1st Sam 15:12 in particular). Indeed, a clue to this is the triumphal arch he has built in Carmel to pass under, which is in like manner to the kings of the pagan nations who demand to be worshiped as gods themselves.
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Aug 25th 2013 new
(quote) Edward-4511 said: There is an elephant in the room that no one is addressing. At the risk of getting flamed, I'll be the one.

And the elephant is this:
Fatima is a private revelation. It is not binding in faith for any Catholic (except those who directly received it). Same goes for all Marian apparitions, the Divine Mercy, the Nine First Fridays, and so on. The most the Church can do with these is deem them "worthy of belief". She cannot insist we believe in them, however.
Do we really have the right to insist that the Pope follow our interpretation of a private revelation? I think not.

As John said, we should celebrate the fact that Pope Francis is consecrating the world to Our Lady. Nitpicking that he's not mentioning "that R country" by name is not helpful. IMHO.
I wont flame, but let me offer some food for thought.

From the Summa:
God continues to reveal Himself to individuals "not indeed for the declaration of any new doctrine of faith, but for the direction of human acts" (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica II-II q174 a6 reply 3)

Pope Benedict XIV:
Although an assent of Catholic faith may not be given to revelations thus approved, still, an assent of human faith, made according to the rules of prudence, is due them; for according to these rules such revelations are probable and worthy of pious credence [...[ it is possible to refuse to accept such revelations and to turn from them, as long as one does so with proper modesty, for good reasons, and without the intention of setting himself up as a superior. (De Serv. Dei Beatif)

Nobody is going to burn in hell for not knowing about or having a devotion to Our Lady of Fatima. But I ask you, with the above in mind, do you think that it's really about whether or not Fatima is public or private revelation? That's besides the point. The point is this: can we say that it is true? Yes, we can. If it is true, then, we should hold fast to what is true by doing as Heaven commands or asks of us. It would be foolish and presumptuous to turn away from private revelations and disregard the mind of the Church here. I mean we have established liturgical feasts and major devotions thanks to private revelation (Sacred Heart, Divine Mercy, the Rosary itself, Lourdes, Fatima).

Just because Fatima lovers insist on doing what Our Lady asked (consecrate Russia) doesn't mean we are nitpicking or not happy that the world is being consecrated. It's just a bit backwards to us is all.

Oh and last thing. What you say works both ways if it's true. If it's only private revelation (used in the disparaging sense of "well, it's only....") and we have no right to insist anything about it well, neither do you or the Pope. Right? Just a thought.

Salvator mundi, salva Russiam.
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Aug 26th 2013 new
Chelsea, thanks for straightening out my terminology.

I was wrong in my assessment and thus placed an unjust label on Antony.

Antony, please accept my apology.

In regards to the Consecration of Russia, I am still praying much, but that which I know for sure, I as well as my entire ancestral lineage tends to lean to the defense of the papacy, the office of the pope and to the individual that occupies the office, until the individual is clearly demonstrated as unworthy. So, to those I did not agree with here, for the foreseeable future I will likely take exception with as long as it puts down the individual occupying that Chair.
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Aug 26th 2013 new
(quote) John-971967 said: In regards to the Consecration of Russia, I am still praying much, but that which I know for sure, I as well as my entire ancestral lineage tends to lean to the defense of the papacy, the office of the pope and to the individual that occupies the office, until the individual is clearly demonstrated as unworthy. So, to those I did not agree with here, for the foreseeable future I will likely take exception with as long as it puts down the individual occupying that Chair.
John,

You're welcome for any good I can offer you.

We're bound to be loyal to the Supreme Pontiff no matter what. It's like St. Catherine of Siena is quoted as saying:

Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honor Christ if we honor the Pope; we dishonor Christ if we dishonor the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: "They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!" But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him.

So, you're in good company as long as you make yourself subject to the Pope...but it is an erroneous view to hold that the Pope cannot do evil things.


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Aug 26th 2013 new
(quote) Chelsea-743484 said: John,

You're welcome for any good I can offer you.

We're bound to be loyal to the Supreme Pontiff no matter what. It's like St. Catherine of Siena is quoted as saying:

Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honor Christ if we honor the Pope; we dishonor Christ if we dishonor the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: "They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!" But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him.

So, you're in good company as long as you make yourself subject to the Pope...but it is an erroneous view to hold that the Pope cannot do evil things.


Chelsea, Thank you very much for the offer, and as much as we agree in principle, I don't agree with the application of the principle in this case. I am willing to wait and watch history unfold as I grow old. I will do it in full communion with my Catholic brethren, cling to Mary's mantle and forge my gaze on Christ while I steer clear of any innuendo against those that occupy the Chair of St Peter. My faith and that of my fathers frees my soul; and as Christ shines His light, so I follow it. I firmly believe that the Consecration of Russia has been performed. I am sorry to have baptized Catholics continue to argue, confuse and divide the rest of us with words that it has not been done. I hope that none that don't believe it keep holding their breath. I think they are missing out in other matters while they seek that which has been done. When such need to exhale and deliver harmful words against the Magisterium of the Church, do not be surprised that it is not favorable and then call the reaction as bullying.
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Aug 26th 2013 new
(quote) John-971967 said: Chelsea, Thank you very much for the offer, and as much as we agree in principle, I don't agree with the application of the principle in this case. I am willing to wait and watch history unfold as I grow old. I will do it in full communion with my Catholic brethren, cling to Mary's mantle and forge my gaze on Christ while I steer clear of any innuendo against those that occupy the Chair of St Peter. My faith and that of my fathers frees my soul; and as Christ shines His light, so I follow it. I firmly believe that the Consecration of Russia has been performed. I am sorry to have baptized Catholics continue to argue, confuse and divide the rest of us with words that it has not been done. I hope that none that don't believe it keep holding their breath. I think they are missing out in other matters while they seek that which has been done. When such need to exhale and deliver harmful words against the Magisterium of the Church, do not be surprised that it is not favorable and then call the reaction as bullying.

Father Gruner - The Present Need for the Consecration of Russia

www.youtube.com
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Aug 26th 2013 new
Tom, you seem to be a very devout, informed young man. Good for you!
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Aug 27th 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: Father Gruner - The Present Need for the Consecration of Russia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsIfT6j30cE
theheart
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