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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Aug 18th 2013 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: These days, the United States is just as, if not more, in need of conversion than Russia.

I absolutely agree. We seem more like the Whore of Babylon than the City on the Hill.

We are more like the City of Man than the City of God.
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Aug 18th 2013 new
Ave Maria

I am a member of the MIM (Missionaries of the Immaculate Mediatrix) ~ based on the spirituality of St. Maximillian Kolbe and Padre Pio ~ whose charism is to promote the Miraculous Medal, Proclamation of the 5th Marian Dogma, Consecration to Mary's Immaculate Heart (which I am currently spearheading an effort to unite the parishioners of all four parishes in our 'cluster' to do so in union with Pope Francis on Oct. 13) and all things Marian, a defining charism of all Franciscans.

I pray that all those expressing differing opinions on whether Russia has been properly consecrated or not ~ and whether or not it even matters ~ can read back through their posts and see the division and hostility that has arisen.

Oh, dear! 'Someone' is happy about this public fussing among God's children...and it isn't Our Blessed Mother. We must remain united in our beliefs and practice of our faith, or at least agree to disagree respectfully. Some things are black and white. Some things are various shades of gray. There is room under Our Lady's Mantle for us all!

After reading and studying about Fatima for many years, this fact remains: one request has yet to be performed.

If God the Father allowed His Holy Mother to come to earth as She did at Fatima, speak and give messages to the children as She did, be instrumental in pointing out many dangers, warnings and promises, including God's magnificent Oct. 13 Miracle of the Sun, then why shouldn't we ALL want to fulfill Her requests down to the letter, crossing every 't' and dotting every 'i'?

Mother Mary was not kidding, joking, or merely suggesting that the consecration of Russia ~ BY NAME ~ be done. It was - and IS - a prerequisite ordained by the Lord Jesus who wants His Mother's requests heeded unconditionally, thus showing Her the reverence and obedience rightly due Her...or else, we will face the consequences.

Ah, such a simple thing. Right? No! The enemy knows the repercussions such an act would bring, so he has used cunning, deceit and DIVISION to delay the inevitable as long as he can. Mary promises that Russia WILL be consecrated by the Pope and the bishops and will be converted...but it will be too late. Russia is the instrument chosen by God to punish the world for its sins.

For many complicated reasons, the consecration has not been properly performed. Of course, any consecration to God or Our Lady are spiritually enriching and necessary!

So, I urge all to get a copy of St. Louis de Montfort's formula, or St. Maximillian Kolbe's formula, or the book our parish will be using, 33 Days to Morning Glory, by Fr. Michael Gaitely, MIC. (I have information where one person, or whole parishes, can receive FREE copies of Fr. Gaitely's book).

There is always HOPE!

Jesus, I trust in You!

Ave Maria








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Aug 18th 2013 new
(quote) Joseph-2737 said: +JMJ+

Tim,

The problem is that the conservative modernists demand that everyone accept their false belief. It is a fact that Russia has never been consecrated by name, period. If one wishes to put forth the proposition that consecrating Russia by name is not important they are free to present their personal opinion.
Taking Mar 25 1984 as the date of consecration, we shall proceed.

Less than one year later (Mar 11 1985), Gorbachev became the head of the USSR.
Less than one month after that Apr 8 1985, he suspended the deployment of nuclear missiles to Europe
Sep 1985, proposed both USA and USSR cut nuclear weapon stockpiles
Nov 1985 Geneva summit, Reagan and Gorbachev agree to work together
Jan 1986 announced proposal to remove all nuclear weapons from Europe
July 1986 started drawn down of Soviet troops in Afghanistan and Mongolia
Ovt 1986, Reagan and Gorbachev agree to remove nuclear weapons from Europe and lower global stockpiles of certain classes of nuclear weapons
1987 Intermediate range Nuclear Forces Treaty signed
1988 Gorbachev announces withdrawal of forces from Afghanistan
1988 Gorbachev announces that Warsaw Pact countries will decide their internal affairs.
March/April 1989 Soviet Congress holds free elections. Congress holds open debate.
June 1989: Poland holds free elections
1989 Collapse of Soviet Empire
Nov 1989 Fall of Berlin Wall
Lots of boring dates
12 June 1991 Birth of Russian Federation
21 Aug 1991 Gorbachev finds out that his country no longer exists.

2008: Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church criticized for associating with the Catholic Church.
2012: Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church visits Poland.
2013: Ecumenical Patriarch of the Orthodox Churches attends Papal Inauguration.
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Aug 18th 2013 new
www.fatima.org8. Wasnt the consecration of the world by the Pope in 1984 enough to fulfill Our Ladys request?

A: No. For her entire life since the apparitions of Our Lady of Fatima, Sister Lucy has insisted that Russia must be specifically mentioned.

For example, in a 1978 interview with her confidant, Father Umberto Pasquale, and in a letter to Father Pasquale in 1980, Sister Lucy was asked the question: Has Our Lady ever spoken to you about the consecration of the world? During the interview, Sister Lucy answered:

No, Father Umberto! Never! At the Cova da Iria in 1917 Our Lady promised: I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia ... In 1929, at Tuy, as She had promised, Our Lady came to tell me that the moment had come to ask the Holy Father for the consecration of that country.

And, in the 1980 letter (dated April 13 of that year), Sister Lucy confirmed what she had said in the interview, stating in her own handwriting that Our Lady of Fatima, in Her request, referred only to the consecration of Russia. Both the 1978 interview and the 1980 letter (photographically reproduced) were published in the May 12, 1982, Italian edition of LOsservatore Romano.

Does not our own common sense tell us that if Our Lady of Fatima requested the consecration of Russia, then Russia must at least be mentioned in the act of consecration? We might also reasonably ask what possible reason there could be for not uttering one simple wordRussiain the act of consecrating Russia. No explanation has ever been given for this mysterious omission in the attempted consecrations of 1982 and 1984.

9. But doesnt the collapse of Communism after the 1984 consecration ceremony show that Russia is beginning to convert and that the consecration must have been effective, despite its failure to mention Russia?

A: Hardly. In 1997 Russia enacted legislation which discriminates against the Catholic Church and in favor of Russian Orthodoxy, Judaism, Islam and Buddhism. Catholic parishes are required to apply for an annual registration which can be revoked at will by any local bureaucrat, while priests and nuns are given only three-month visas which cannot be renewed. The Vatican has condemned the new law as a great setback for the Church in Russia.

In all of Russia today there are some 300,000 Catholicsfewer than there were in 1917, the same year Our Lady came to Fatima and promised the ultimate conversion of Russia, which has yet to occur. The Russian Revolution, which has been exported in various forms to other nations, confirms Our Ladys prophecy of the spread of Russias errors throughout the world. Today Muslims outnumber Catholics ten-to-one in Russia. Compare this with the true miracle of conversion which occurred after the apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico in the 16th Century: within nine years some 9 million Aztecs turned from devil-worship and human sacrifice and were converted and baptized as Catholics. Yet in Russia today, more than 14 years after the supposed consecration of 1984, we see barely a trickle of converts, and fewer Russian Catholics overall than there were 80 years ago!

Even the Russian Orthodox patriarch, Alexi II, publicly admitted on December 24, 1998, that since the supposed fall of communism in Russia, Christian culture is not only being pushed into the background and oblivion, but is also being mocked and ridiculed ... as something extinct and unnecessary. Alexi also decried the rise of neo-paganism ... totalitarian sects, black magic practitioners, astrologers, and occultists in post-communist Russia.

Meanwhile, Boris Yeltsin has been forced to cede power to the Communist-dominated Russian parliament, and his new prime minister, the former head of the dreaded KGB, has placed Communists in control of the entire Russian economy, producing what even the liberal NY Times has called a shift to the left and a return to Soviet-style government.

Most telling of all: Since the consecration of 1984, more than 600 million children have been slaughtered in the womb around the worldincluding Russia, where legalized abortion began. The war on the unborn is the greatest war in the history of the world. Thus, it should be obvious to anyone with common sense that the period of peace promised by Our Lady if Russia were properly consecrated has yet to occur.

The conversion of Russia promised by Our Lady of Fatima has simply not happened. This can only mean that the consecration has not been done, for Our Ladys promises cannot be false.

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Aug 18th 2013 new
Tracy,

How is it that one can go against the words of the ordinary magisterium and the vicar of Christ, and think that it is precisely those actions that are not contributing to division?
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Aug 18th 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: http://www.fatima.org/apostolate/faqconse.asp8. Wasnt the consecration of the world by the Pope in 1984 enough to fulfill Our Ladys request?

A: No. For her entire life since the apparitions of Our Lady of Fatima, Sister Lucy has insisted that Russia must be specifically mentioned.

For example, in a 1978 interview with her confidant, Father Umberto Pasquale, and in a letter to Father Pasquale in 1980, Sister Lucy was asked the question: Has Our Lady ever spoken to you about the consecration of the world? During the interview, Sister Lucy answered:

No, Father Umberto! Never! At the Cova da Iria in 1917 Our Lady promised: I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia ... In 1929, at Tuy, as She had promised, Our Lady came to tell me that the moment had come to ask the Holy Father for the consecration of that country.

And, in the 1980 letter (dated April 13 of that year), Sister Lucy confirmed what she had said in the interview, stating in her own handwriting that Our Lady of Fatima, in Her request, referred only to the consecration of Russia. Both the 1978 interview and the 1980 letter (photographically reproduced) were published in the May 12, 1982, Italian edition of LOsservatore Romano.

Does not our own common sense tell us that if Our Lady of Fatima requested the consecration of Russia, then Russia must at least be mentioned in the act of consecration? We might also reasonably ask what possible reason there could be for not uttering one simple wordRussiain the act of consecrating Russia. No explanation has ever been given for this mysterious omission in the attempted consecrations of 1982 and 1984.

9. But doesnt the collapse of Communism after the 1984 consecration ceremony show that Russia is beginning to convert and that the consecration must have been effective, despite its failure to mention Russia?

A: Hardly. In 1997 Russia enacted legislation which discriminates against the Catholic Church and in favor of Russian Orthodoxy, Judaism, Islam and Buddhism. Catholic parishes are required to apply for an annual registration which can be revoked at will by any local bureaucrat, while priests and nuns are given only three-month visas which cannot be renewed. The Vatican has condemned the new law as a great setback for the Church in Russia.

In all of Russia today there are some 300,000 Catholicsfewer than there were in 1917, the same year Our Lady came to Fatima and promised the ultimate conversion of Russia, which has yet to occur. The Russian Revolution, which has been exported in various forms to other nations, confirms Our Ladys prophecy of the spread of Russias errors throughout the world. Today Muslims outnumber Catholics ten-to-one in Russia. Compare this with the true miracle of conversion which occurred after the apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico in the 16th Century: within nine years some 9 million Aztecs turned from devil-worship and human sacrifice and were converted and baptized as Catholics. Yet in Russia today, more than 14 years after the supposed consecration of 1984, we see barely a trickle of converts, and fewer Russian Catholics overall than there were 80 years ago!

Even the Russian Orthodox patriarch, Alexi II, publicly admitted on December 24, 1998, that since the supposed fall of communism in Russia, Christian culture is not only being pushed into the background and oblivion, but is also being mocked and ridiculed ... as something extinct and unnecessary. Alexi also decried the rise of neo-paganism ... totalitarian sects, black magic practitioners, astrologers, and occultists in post-communist Russia.

Meanwhile, Boris Yeltsin has been forced to cede power to the Communist-dominated Russian parliament, and his new prime minister, the former head of the dreaded KGB, has placed Communists in control of the entire Russian economy, producing what even the liberal NY Times has called a shift to the left and a return to Soviet-style government.

Most telling of all: Since the consecration of 1984, more than 600 million children have been slaughtered in the womb around the worldincluding Russia, where legalized abortion began. The war on the unborn is the greatest war in the history of the world. Thus, it should be obvious to anyone with common sense that the period of peace promised by Our Lady if Russia were properly consecrated has yet to occur.

The conversion of Russia promised by Our Lady of Fatima has simply not happened. This can only mean that the consecration has not been done, for Our Ladys promises cannot be false.

This post betrays a general desire for immediate gratification. This logic is used by Jewish apologists to claim that Jesus is not the Messiah. It is also used by Sola Scriptura to try and refute a number of Catholic Dogmas. Catholicism does not hold that the second you perform a good action all is well and there is no more work to do (for that matter, neither does Orthodox Christianity). My own experience in getting rid of sin has been that it is a slow process, but that the Holy Spirit will ultimately triumph.

We have seen the removal of nuclear weapons from Eastern Europe and the fall of the Soviet Union. In terms of abortion, the US is slowly introducing laws that restrict the ability to get abortions. Russians are returning the Russian Orthodox Church slowly. As for the conversion of Russia (or Orthodox Christianity as a whole) to Catholicism, Ratzinger in 2012 (he published it under his name rather than his papal name), "Reunion could take place in this context if, on the one hand, the East would cease to oppose as heretical the developments that took place in the West in the second millennium and would accept the Catholic Church as legitimate and orthodox in the form she had acquired in the course of that development, while on the other hand, the West would recognize the Church of the East as orthodox in the form she has always had."

These repeated statements the consecration did not happen suffer from a fundamental problem; they call JPII a liar and indicate the caller believes he has inside knowledge.

Here is a link:
books.google.com
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Aug 18th 2013 new
(quote) John-971967 said: Tracy,

How is it that one can go against the words of the ordinary magisterium and the vicar of Christ, and think that it is precisely those actions that are not contributing to division?
Why is it that we cannot just do what Our Lady requested, by name, so there will be no doubt it was done instead of telling those of us that point out the obvious why it really was (when it wasn't) or why it doesn't matter (just like the Kings of France thought about the Consecration to the Sacred Heart requested of them for one hundred years until the day - to the day - when they were declared deposed).
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Aug 18th 2013 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: Why is it that we cannot just do what Our Lady requested, by name, so there will be no doubt it was done instead of telling those of us that point out the obvious why it really was (when it wasn't) or why it doesn't matter (just like the Kings of France thought about the Consecration to the Sacred Heart requested of them for one hundred years until the day - to the day - when they were declared deposed).
Do you have a sufficiently unbiased source for this? I have not found a single mention of this in a source of high regard that does not mention Fatima.
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Aug 18th 2013 new
It's the proverbial 'elephant in the room' or 'not seeing the forest for the trees'. The answer to this all is so obvious, that few can see it.

I hope to post more later. Discussion is GOOD! At least people are being made more aware of the tremendous gift that consecrating oneself to the Immaculate Heart of Mary truly is. I must prepare more materials for our cluster of four parishes right now, whom I hope and pray will participate in union with Pope Francis' consecration on Oct. 13.

Ave Maria!
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Aug 18th 2013 new
(quote) Tracy-929496 said: It's the proverbial 'elephant in the room' or 'not seeing the forest for the trees'. The answer to this all is so obvious, that few can see it.

I hope to post more later. Discussion is GOOD! At least people are being made more aware of the tremendous gift that consecrating oneself to the Immaculate Heart of Mary truly is. I must prepare more materials for our cluster of four parishes right now, whom I hope and pray will participate in union with Pope Francis' consecration on Oct. 13.

Ave Maria!
Tracy, I give Glory to God for your "breath of fresh air" responses, as from the Holy Spirit. I am so glad to hear from a group devoted to St. Maximilian Kolbe. What a powerful devotee he was to the Immaculate heart of Mary. It seems (from my viewpoint) that there's just been arguing these past few days & as you say we need to turn our focus back to consecrating our lives to the Immaculate heart of Mary & to Jesus.

I grew up w/ 6 brothers so I know so well how it can be to watch guys who would like to express their opinions & declare they are "right". Maybe it's like Tim said some time back, "let's just agree to disagree". Meanwhile, we can keep praying for Russia, as well as North Korea, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq & any other country where there's so much persecution & bloodshed happening at present. Peace & Amen! Praying rosary theheart

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