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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Aug 18th 2013 new
(quote) Anne-445674 said: It seems (from my viewpoint) that there's just been arguing these past few days...
Anne,

I can respect your viewpoint, but to offer a bit more clarity, my statements are directed to those that do not put the past few popes in a good light. My comments are essentially to defend the Holy Father and his predecessors. Mary has protected the Holy Fathers over the last century and has also outwitted the enemies.

I think that the Holy Fathers have done their best to avert world calamity, after calamity, with the assistance of Providence. The spiritual weapons have again proven to have been superior to conventional, even nuclear ones.

It baffles my mind of how even now people can't recognize that material communism was rendered useless even after it held the threat of nuclear annihilation against the Church and the other powers of the world.

What would you do, if you were pope, and Russia told you that they were going to obliterate the globe, unless you did what they commanded? Should one rub salt in it's face? Or does one take a more subtle means? A means by way of peace...yet still get the job done!

I am not at all against further consecrations to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and never have been. I think it awesome!!!

I just don't care for more attacks against the Holy Fathers (the present one or his predecessors), especially from small minds within.

To this small mind, it's obvious...
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Aug 18th 2013 new
I am a practicing catholic, but I am personally still on the "fence" with Pope Francis scratchchin Praying
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Aug 18th 2013 new
(quote) Alex-789274 said: This post betrays a general desire for immediate gratification. This logic is used by Jewish apologists to claim that Jesus is not the Messiah. It is also used by Sola Scriptura to try and refute a number of Catholic Dogmas. Catholicism does not hold that the second you perform a good action all is well and there is no more work to do (for that matter, neither does Orthodox Christianity). My own experience in getting rid of sin has been that it is a slow process, but that the Holy Spirit will ultimately triumph.

We have seen the removal of nuclear weapons from Eastern Europe and the fall of the Soviet Union. In terms of abortion, the US is slowly introducing laws that restrict the ability to get abortions. Russians are returning the Russian Orthodox Church slowly. As for the conversion of Russia (or Orthodox Christianity as a whole) to Catholicism, Ratzinger in 2012 (he published it under his name rather than his papal name), "Reunion could take place in this context if, on the one hand, the East would cease to oppose as heretical the developments that took place in the West in the second millennium and would accept the Catholic Church as legitimate and orthodox in the form she had acquired in the course of that development, while on the other hand, the West would recognize the Church of the East as orthodox in the form she has always had."

These repeated statements the consecration did not happen suffer from a fundamental problem; they call JPII a liar and indicate the caller believes he has inside knowledge.

Here is a link:
http://books.google.com/books?id=pEaxgHlMQbcC&pg=PA162#v=onepage&q&f=false
No one is calling Pope John Paul ll a liar.Don't be so dramatic!
The Pope did not do the Consecration (of Russia) properly.He failed to name Russia,as Our Lady requested.

Nobody is claiming inside knowledge.It's all in the open, and as obvious as the nose on your face.There is no written proof (or claim) at all, in the texts of the various Consecrations of the World, that includes Russia by name.End of story .You are wrong.
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Aug 18th 2013 new
(quote) Alex-789274 said: Do you have a sufficiently unbiased source for this? I have not found a single mention of this in a source of high regard that does not mention Fatima.
***********************************************************************************************************************************************8*******************www.fatima.org8. Wasnt the consecration of the world by the Pope in 1984 enough to fulfill Our Ladys request?

A: No. For her entire life since the apparitions of Our Lady of Fatima, Sister Lucy has insisted that Russia must be specifically mentioned.

For example, in a 1978 interview with her confidant, Father Umberto Pasquale, and in a letter to Father Pasquale in 1980, Sister Lucy was asked the question: Has Our Lady ever spoken to you about the consecration of the world? During the interview, Sister Lucy answered:

No, Father Umberto! Never! At the Cova da Iria in 1917 Our Lady promised: I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia ... In 1929, at Tuy, as She had promised, Our Lady came to tell me that the moment had come to ask the Holy Father for the consecration of that country.

And, in the 1980 letter (dated April 13 of that year), Sister Lucy confirmed what she had said in the interview, stating in her own handwriting that Our Lady of Fatima, in Her request, referred only to the consecration of Russia. Both the 1978 interview and the 1980 letter (photographically reproduced) were published in the May 12, 1982, Italian edition of LOsservatore Romano.

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Aug 18th 2013 new
(quote) Alex-789274 said: Taking Mar 25 1984 as the date of consecration, we shall proceed.

Less than one year later (Mar 11 1985), Gorbachev became the head of the USSR.
Less than one month after that Apr 8 1985, he suspended the deployment of nuclear missiles to Europe
Sep 1985, proposed both USA and USSR cut nuclear weapon stockpiles
Nov 1985 Geneva summit, Reagan and Gorbachev agree to work together
Jan 1986 announced proposal to remove all nuclear weapons from Europe
July 1986 started drawn down of Soviet troops in Afghanistan and Mongolia
Ovt 1986, Reagan and Gorbachev agree to remove nuclear weapons from Europe and lower global stockpiles of certain classes of nuclear weapons
1987 Intermediate range Nuclear Forces Treaty signed
1988 Gorbachev announces withdrawal of forces from Afghanistan
1988 Gorbachev announces that Warsaw Pact countries will decide their internal affairs.
March/April 1989 Soviet Congress holds free elections. Congress holds open debate.
June 1989: Poland holds free elections
1989 Collapse of Soviet Empire
Nov 1989 Fall of Berlin Wall
Lots of boring dates
12 June 1991 Birth of Russian Federation
21 Aug 1991 Gorbachev finds out that his country no longer exists.

2008: Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church criticized for associating with the Catholic Church.
2012: Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church visits Poland.
2013: Ecumenical Patriarch of the Orthodox Churches attends Papal Inauguration.
+JMJ+

Excellent examples that the consecration of the world did have a positive effect! biggrin
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Aug 18th 2013 new
(quote) Alex-789274 said: This post betrays a general desire for immediate gratification. This logic is used by Jewish apologists to claim that Jesus is not the Messiah. It is also used by Sola Scriptura to try and refute a number of Catholic Dogmas. Catholicism does not hold that the second you perform a good action all is well and there is no more work to do (for that matter, neither does Orthodox Christianity). My own experience in getting rid of sin has been that it is a slow process, but that the Holy Spirit will ultimately triumph.

We have seen the removal of nuclear weapons from Eastern Europe and the fall of the Soviet Union. In terms of abortion, the US is slowly introducing laws that restrict the ability to get abortions. Russians are returning the Russian Orthodox Church slowly. As for the conversion of Russia (or Orthodox Christianity as a whole) to Catholicism, Ratzinger in 2012 (he published it under his name rather than his papal name), "Reunion could take place in this context if, on the one hand, the East would cease to oppose as heretical the developments that took place in the West in the second millennium and would accept the Catholic Church as legitimate and orthodox in the form she had acquired in the course of that development, while on the other hand, the West would recognize the Church of the East as orthodox in the form she has always had."

These repeated statements the consecration did not happen suffer from a fundamental problem; they call JPII a liar and indicate the caller believes he has inside knowledge.

Here is a link:
http://books.google.com/books?id=pEaxgHlMQbcC&pg=PA162#v=onepage&q&f=false
+JMJ+

No sorry. The good that came out of the consecration of the world in no way negates the importance of Our Lady's specific request.
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Aug 18th 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: No one is calling Pope John Paul ll a liar.Don't be so dramatic!
The Pope did not do the Consecration (of Russia) properly.He failed to name Russia,as Our Lady requested.

Nobody is claiming inside knowledge.It's all in the open, and as obvious as the nose on your face.There is no written proof (or claim) at all, in the texts of the various Consecrations of the World, that includes Russia by name.End of story .You are wrong.
+JMJ+

Bingo.
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Aug 18th 2013 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: Why is it that we cannot just do what Our Lady requested, by name, so there will be no doubt it was done instead of telling those of us that point out the obvious why it really was (when it wasn't) or why it doesn't matter (just like the Kings of France thought about the Consecration to the Sacred Heart requested of them for one hundred years until the day - to the day - when they were declared deposed).
+JMJ+

And look at what that delay cost not just the Eldest Daughter of the Church but all of us to this very day. sad
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Aug 18th 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: ***********************************************************************************************************************************************8*******************http://www.fatima.org/apostolate/faqconse.asp8. Wasnt the consecration of the world by the Pope in 1984 enough to fulfill Our Ladys request?

A: No. For her entire life since the apparitions of Our Lady of Fatima, Sister Lucy has insisted that Russia must be specifically mentioned.

For example, in a 1978 interview with her confidant, Father Umberto Pasquale, and in a letter to Father Pasquale in 1980, Sister Lucy was asked the question: Has Our Lady ever spoken to you about the consecration of the world? During the interview, Sister Lucy answered:

No, Father Umberto! Never! At the Cova da Iria in 1917 Our Lady promised: I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia ... In 1929, at Tuy, as She had promised, Our Lady came to tell me that the moment had come to ask the Holy Father for the consecration of that country.

And, in the 1980 letter (dated April 13 of that year), Sister Lucy confirmed what she had said in the interview, stating in her own handwriting that Our Lady of Fatima, in Her request, referred only to the consecration of Russia. Both the 1978 interview and the 1980 letter (photographically reproduced) were published in the May 12, 1982, Italian edition of LOsservatore Romano.

+JMJ+

No on can produce any official document from the church that states that Russia was consecrated by name. The onus is on those who dismiss the specific request of the Most Blessed Virgin Mary. Certainly, it is true that other consecrations have been accepted by Our Lady and they they have done tremendous good but that's a different issue.
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Aug 18th 2013 new
AMEN, Anne!!!

Let's stop arguing with each other and start praying with and for each other!!!
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