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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Aug 18th 2013 new
(quote) Kevin-975826 said: I am a practicing catholic, but I am personally still on the "fence" with Pope Francis
If by this statement all you are saying is that you are still on the fence about liking or not liking him ands his way of ruling the Church, that is perfectly fine and presents no problem.

However, if you mean you have still to make up your mind whether or not he is a legitimate or orthodox Pope, then you have an obvious problem.

For example, I personally believe Paul VI was a lousy Pope, bordering on incompetence administratively, he named more poor Bishops than any other Pope in the last 100 years. He failed to bring to heel schismatic and virtually heretical clergy. His curial appointments left a lot to be desired, etc.

Nevertheless, he was legitimately elected, contrary to what the radical traditionalists say. Despite his overall poor administrative record, he never taught heresy, he published some excellent encyclicals. And it can be said that he was unfortunate to come to the Chair of Peter at a horrible time in human history, when the most destructive generation in human history was over turning human standards of conduct that existed from at least the beginning of recorded history. A generation whose narcissism and total self absorption is still malignantly infecting mankind.

I still honor him as Pope.

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Aug 18th 2013 new
(quote) Joseph-2737 said: +JMJ+

No on can produce any official document from the church that states that Russia was consecrated by name. The onus is on those who dismiss the specific request of the Most Blessed Virgin Mary. Certainly, it is true that other consecrations have been accepted by Our Lady and they they have done tremendous good but that's a different issue.
Sr.Lucia, the visionary of Fatima, both orally and in writing confirmed the Consecration had been properlky made and accepted.

Sorry, but she trumps all other nonsensical claims and demands.
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Aug 19th 2013 new
Paul, this written claim you refer to was presented on typewritten paper, something Sr. Lucia NEVER did. She always handwrote all of her notes, correspondence and letters. The 'confirmation' you quote was offered as proof of a 'valid' consecration after several hours of an intense, secluded, unrecorded 'interview' with Sr. Lucia leaving visibly shaken and disturbed.

With all of the recent technological advances at the time of this interview, we may well wonder why NO recording, audio or visual, was done of this immensely important interview with the lone survivor of the most important heavenly visitation the world has ever known!!!



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Aug 19th 2013 new
(quote) Tracy-929496 said: Paul, this written claim you refer to was presented on typewritten paper, something Sr. Lucia NEVER did. She always handwrote all of her notes, correspondence and letters. The 'confirmation' you quote was offered as proof of a 'valid' consecration after several hours of an intense, secluded, unrecorded 'interview' with Sr. Lucia leaving visibly shaken and disturbed.

With all of the recent technological advances at the time of this interview, we may well wonder why NO recording, audio or visual, was done of this immensely important interview with the lone survivor of the most important heavenly visitation the world has ever known!!!



It makes absolutely no difference if the note were typed or not. She signed it. It is her statement.

The rest of your story, for that is what it is, impugns the integrity of the Pope's emissary and therefore the Pope himself. It implies the existence of some kind of conspiracy. A conspiracy that 1) has no basis in fact or reality and 2) for which no rational reason has ever been given for a conspiracy of this type to exist.

I have read the same web sites that makes these spurious claims and they all have one thing in common, they are virtually schismatic sites, some even bordering on the verge of heresy.

Reflect on this simple fact.Our Lady was very important to JPII. He was devoted to the rosary, hence the Luminous Mysteries. He credited our Lady of Fatima for the fact that the assassins bullet did not find its mark.

He tried to Consecrate according to Our Lady's wishes once and was informed by Sr.Lucia that it was not in proper from because he was not joined in the Consecration with the Bishops. Sr. Lucia made no mention of the fact that that Consecration was deficient because he did not name Russia in the Consecration.

So he did it again, this time calling on all,the Bishops to join him. After that one, he sent his emissary to Sr. Lucia. He was informed by Sr. Lucia that it was proper and had been accepted.

Very telling, after that Consecration he never again tried to Consecrate to fulfill Mary's request, yet continued as Pope for 20 more years.

Believe what you want, but it is accepted in the Church that the Virgin's request was met. Benedict XVI believed so, so he made no attempt.

Most of "it wasn't done" BS mainly originates from Fr. Grunner a priest not in good standing in the Church, despite his claims to the contrary. Rome contradicts him.

Now think about it. What does the Church have to gain from saying it was done if that were not true?

As it is, we still have a small but vocal minority faction of the faithful claiming they know better. Usually the same radical tradionalist who make all kinds of wild claims about a lot of other things.

When asked whom I believe, I'll stick with the Church and Sr. Lucia.
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Aug 19th 2013 new
(quote) Tracy-929496 said: Paul, this written claim you refer to was presented on typewritten paper, something Sr. Lucia NEVER did. She always handwrote all of her notes, correspondence and letters. The 'confirmation' you quote was offered as proof of a 'valid' consecration after several hours of an intense, secluded, unrecorded 'interview' with Sr. Lucia leaving visibly shaken and disturbed.

With all of the recent technological advances at the time of this interview, we may well wonder why NO recording, audio or visual, was done of this immensely important interview with the lone survivor of the most important heavenly visitation the world has ever known!!!



Oh, one morepoint. Over the years Sr. Lucia had many interviews with a lot of people. How many of them were recorded? How many were not?

Sound films go back to the 1920's. Wire recorders go back to the WWII, tape recording followed quickly with TV tape recording coming along in the 1950's (by a company Bing Crosby was heavily invested in by the way). Yet there are few recording of Sr. Lucia in any of these mediums.

That is also another nonsense argument.
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Aug 19th 2013 new
(quote) Tracy-929496 said: Paul, this written claim you refer to was presented on typewritten paper, something Sr. Lucia NEVER did. She always handwrote all of her notes, correspondence and letters. The 'confirmation' you quote was offered as proof of a 'valid' consecration after several hours of an intense, secluded, unrecorded 'interview' with Sr. Lucia leaving visibly shaken and disturbed.

With all of the recent technological advances at the time of this interview, we may well wonder why NO recording, audio or visual, was done of this immensely important interview with the lone survivor of the most important heavenly visitation the world has ever known!!!



+JMJ+

Even if one accepts what Paul is saying on face value it still does not change the fact that no Pope has publicly consecrated Russia by name.
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Aug 19th 2013 new
(quote) Joseph-2737 said: +JMJ+

Even if one accepts what Paul is saying on face value it still does not change the fact that no Pope has publicly consecrated Russia by name.
Unfortunately, the argument means nothing.

Sr. Lucia said it met the requirements and was accepted. End of argument

Next time the Virgin visits you, ask her why. Until then submit yourself to reality.
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Aug 19th 2013 new
(quote) Tracy-929496 said: Paul, this written claim you refer to was presented on typewritten paper, something Sr. Lucia NEVER did. She always handwrote all of her notes, correspondence and letters. The 'confirmation' you quote was offered as proof of a 'valid' consecration after several hours of an intense, secluded, unrecorded 'interview' with Sr. Lucia leaving visibly shaken and disturbed.

With all of the recent technological advances at the time of this interview, we may well wonder why NO recording, audio or visual, was done of this immensely important interview with the lone survivor of the most important heavenly visitation the world has ever known!!!



Tracy,

Consider these facts.

Sr.Lucia is credited as the author of a total of 7 books.

The first 4 under the title, "Fatima in Lucia's Own Words" were published between 1935 and 1941. The manuscripts were delivered to the original Publisher in typed form.

The next two under the title "Fatima in Lucia's Own Words" were published in 1989- 1993. The manuscript of these two books was delivered to the original, publisher in her own handwriting.

Finally in 2001 a seventh book was published under two separate titles, " Calls From the Message of Fatima" or "Appeals From the Fatima Message." The manuscript of this book delivered to the original publisher was in typewritten form.

Now carrying your argument to its logical conclusion, books 1 through 4 and 7 were not Sr. Lucia's books. Only books 5 and 6 were Sr. Lucia's.

Nevertheless all 7 are her books.


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Aug 19th 2013 new
(quote) Joseph-2737 said: +JMJ+

No on can produce any official document from the church that states that Russia was consecrated by name. The onus is on those who dismiss the specific request of the Most Blessed Virgin Mary. Certainly, it is true that other consecrations have been accepted by Our Lady and they they have done tremendous good but that's a different issue.
That is the specific point.

It is never a good thing to spurn the will of God, especially when one directly requested. I would also daresay that it is not a good thing to try to second-guess God or Our Lady either.

Anything Our Lady tells us, when we do it, is doing what Our Lord tell us, as at Cana. [John 2:5]
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Aug 19th 2013 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: That is the specific point.

It is never a good thing to spurn the will of God, especially when one directly requested. I would also daresay that it is not a good thing to try to second-guess God or Our Lady either.

Anything Our Lady tells us, when we do it, is doing what Our Lord tell us, as at Cana. [John 2:5]
Sr. Lucia is reputed to have been in contact with our Lady all her life after Fatima.

Sr.Lucia said that heaven told her the Consecration fulfilled the request and accepted it.

Since you say it is not a good idea to do so, why are you, and the others, second guessing God.
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