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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
Learn More: Saint Augustine

Aug 23rd 2013 new
(quote) David-364112 said: Fanatics are ego-driven. People of genuine deep faith yield their will to God's will.

Fanatics seek to impose their will (which they cannot distinguish from God's will) on others. People of genuine deep faith seek to discern and follow God's will for them and to love others, bringing them to the faith more by example than by brow-beating and censure.

Fanatics are close-minded and intolerant and believe they alone know what is right for others. People of genuine deep faith are tolerant, open-minded, and compassionate; They don't condone sinful behavior but neither do they berate others who live that way.
David, well said~ I have both in my family!
Aug 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Tracy-929496 said: They called Jesus a 'fanatic', so I guess if you are called one, you are in good company!
just to merge this into your responses also...........
Aug 23rd 2013 new
(quote) David-364112 said: Fanatics are ego-driven. People of genuine deep faith yield their will to God's will.

Fanatics seek to impose their will (which they cannot distinguish from God's will) on others. People of genuine deep faith seek to discern and follow God's will for them and to love others, bringing them to the faith more by example than by brow-beating and censure.

Fanatics are close-minded and intolerant and believe they alone know what is right for others. People of genuine deep faith are tolerant, open-minded, and compassionate; They don't condone sinful behavior but neither do they berate others who live that way.
Very nice response David.

I think, all in all, it is not the extreme that we love God that identifies fanatics, but those who love themselves. I had a priest friend tell me one time, you cannot judge (arrogant, better-than-thou type of judging) someone if you love and pray for them. And love always desires the greater good of the person while respecting their free will as God does.
Aug 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Joanna-615441 said: ... And love always desires the greater good of the person while respecting their free will as God does.

Is this so?

A law passed to protect a foetus does not respect the free will of a woman who does not believe in the personhood of a foetus. A law passed to deny the appellation 'marriage' to a same-sex couple does not respect the free will of a same-sex couple who see the appellation as mere grammar.

We cannot have our cake and eat it as well.

A fanatic is often someone who believes that the urgency of a situation requires as self-defence for personal safety or the greater good the taking of action that appears, to those who do not see the situation as urgent, as peremptory and harsh. A 'fanatic' would argue that he or she sees the picture truly, while those who 'live according to faith' who see the picture as not as urgent and as allowing for latitude as the misconceived pollyannas. Will God allow disaster to befall the United Sates because of abortion, homosexuality, the liberty (or is it licence) to bear arms, capital punishment, etc. etc.? Are the stones crying out for retribution? It depends on whether your spiritual eyes see things differently from those of your neighbours. This may be because of psychology (Westboro Baptist, perhaps?) or by an explainable difference of opinion.

'Fanatic' is a pejorative used for bad press. People who 'live according to faith' (including the misconceived pollyannas) shift between states of fanaticism, mild concern and laissez-faire according to what their internals are telling them about the issues. And it's quite common for the shifts to occur several times in a day or for people to hold several different states concurrently.

Is there nothing that you are 'fanatical' about?

Aug 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Roystan-340472 said:

Is this so?

A law passed to protect a foetus does not respect the free will of a woman who does not believe in the personhood of a foetus. A law passed to deny the appellation 'marriage' to a same-sex couple does not respect the free will of a same-sex couple who see the appellation as mere grammar.

We cannot have our cake and eat it as well.

A fanatic is often someone who believes that the urgency of a situation requires as self-defence for personal safety or the greater good the taking of action that appears, to those who do not see the situation as urgent, as peremptory and harsh. A 'fanatic' would argue that he or she sees the picture truly, while those who 'live according to faith' who see the picture as not as urgent and as allowing for latitude as the misconceived pollyannas. Will God allow disaster to befall the United Sates because of abortion, homosexuality, the liberty (or is it licence) to bear arms, capital punishment, etc. etc.? Are the stones crying out for retribution? It depends on whether your spiritual eyes see things differently from those of your neighbours. This may be because of psychology (Westboro Baptist, perhaps?) or by an explainable difference of opinion.

'Fanatic' is a pejorative used for bad press. People who 'live according to faith' (including the misconceived pollyannas) shift between states of fanaticism, mild concern and laissez-faire according to what their internals are telling them about the issues. And it's quite common for the shifts to occur several times in a day or for people to hold several different states concurrently.

Is there nothing that you are 'fanatical' about?

Wow, not sure how you made the leap from love to law, maybe you have something in your eye? biggrin

I am speaking of love as Christ loves. He spoke truth, but did not condemn the sinner. He held the religious leaders to the standard they refused to hold themselves, and even in that was love. When we love as Christ loves, we do not condone sinful behavior, but neither do we look down on those who sin, because we too have sinned, we too have been lost in darkness before we were brought into the marvelous light of Jesus. And if we all encourage and live a culture of love, then there would be no need of laws to protect the unborn child because all women would know Truth. We are all in stages of childhood in our faith and belief system, some mature in knowledge of God, and grow in wisdom faster than others.

I don't think that those who strive to live a life of faith are pollyannas. Quite the contrary, it takes great courage to look at situations with humility and love. I am not one of those people. I too have had to learn about love in the face of wanting to be fanatical and judgmental. But I sit at the feet of the Master and hope the great pity He takes on me will produce good fruit

Aug 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Roystan-340472 said:

Is this so?

A law passed to protect a foetus does not respect the free will of a woman who does not believe in the personhood of a foetus. A law passed to deny the appellation 'marriage' to a same-sex couple does not respect the free will of a same-sex couple who see the appellation as mere grammar.

We cannot have our cake and eat it as well.

A fanatic is often someone who believes that the urgency of a situation requires as self-defence for personal safety or the greater good the taking of action that appears, to those who do not see the situation as urgent, as peremptory and harsh. A 'fanatic' would argue that he or she sees the picture truly, while those who 'live according to faith' who see the picture as not as urgent and as allowing for latitude as the misconceived pollyannas. Will God allow disaster to befall the United Sates because of abortion, homosexuality, the liberty (or is it licence) to bear arms, capital punishment, etc. etc.? Are the stones crying out for retribution? It depends on whether your spiritual eyes see things differently from those of your neighbours. This may be because of psychology (Westboro Baptist, perhaps?) or by an explainable difference of opinion.

'Fanatic' is a pejorative used for bad press. People who 'live according to faith' (including the misconceived pollyannas) shift between states of fanaticism, mild concern and laissez-faire according to what their internals are telling them about the issues. And it's quite common for the shifts to occur several times in a day or for people to hold several different states concurrently.

Is there nothing that you are 'fanatical' about?

Wow, not sure how you made the leap from love to law, maybe you have something in your eye? biggrin

I am speaking of love as Christ loves. He spoke truth, but did not condemn the sinner. He held the religious leaders to the standard they refused to hold themselves, and even in that was love. When we love as Christ loves, we do not condone sinful behavior, but neither do we look down on those who sin, because we too have sinned, we too have been lost in darkness before we were brought into the marvelous light of Jesus. And if we all encourage and live a culture of love, then there would be no need of laws to protect the unborn child because all women would know Truth. We are all in stages of childhood in our faith and belief system, some mature in knowledge of God, and grow in wisdom faster than others.

I don't think that those who strive to live a life of faith are pollyannas. Quite the contrary, it takes great courage to look at situations with humility and love. I am not one of those people. I too have had to learn about love in the face of wanting to be fanatical and judgmental. But I sit at the feet of the Master and hope the great pity He takes on me will produce good fruit

Aug 26th 2013 new
(quote) Joanna-615441 said: ... the leap from love to law ....

 ....  He spoke truth, but did not condemn the sinner....
Laws are where the rubber meets the road, where the lawgivers (such as the members of your local, state and national legislatures) decide that pleading and advocacy are all well and good but something more needs to be done for good to supplant evil, and to be done in a peremptory manner. There is also the saying, "To take the law into your own hands", in which an individual decides that he or she has to act, not merely speak, upon something, and to act in a peremptory manner.

Could the leap from love to law be the leap of the tip of a whip from one cattle to another, the leap of a man with zeal for his father's house from one moneychangers' table to another, condemning the purpose of the cattle by driving them out of a certain place, condemning the business of a table by scattering its contents, taking the law within Himself into his own hands?


www.biblegateway.com

www.orlutheran.com


Aug 26th 2013 new
(quote) Roystan-340472 said: Laws are where the rubber meets the road, where the lawgivers (such as the members of your local, state and national legislatures) decide that pleading and advocacy are all well and good but something more needs to be done for good to supplant evil, and to be done in a peremptory manner. There is also the saying, "To take the law into your own hands", in which an individual decides that he or she has to act, not merely speak, upon something, and to act in a peremptory manner.

Could the leap from love to law be the leap of the tip of a whip from one cattle to another, the leap of a man with zeal for his father's house from one moneychangers' table to another, condemning the purpose of the cattle by driving them out of a certain place, condemning the business of a table by scattering its contents, taking the law within Himself into his own hands?


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+2%3A13-17&version=NIV

http://www.orlutheran.com/html/bscleans.html


I don't necessarily disagree with you on some of your points, sadly laws are needed. Christ himself said he condemns no man. He was mad as hell at the money changers in the Temple, yet no where in his rant did he condemn. He called a spade a spade.

I said, love as Christ loves . . . respect the free will of man as God does (meaning us little people). God tells us to obey the authorities over us. Anything can become a conundrum if you drill down far enough.

Peace
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