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A place to learn, mingle, and share

Discussion related to living as a Catholic in the single state of life. As long as a topic is being discussed from the perspective of a single Catholic then it will be on-topic.

Tobias and Sarah's story is from the Book of Tobit, and his journey is guided by Saint Raphael.
Learn More: Tobias & Sarah as led by Saint Raphael

Aug 24th 2013 new
(quote) Tom-975374 said: Any woman who thinks of herself as a prize is an instant turn off for any decent man. No man with self respect likes to deal with a diva. As soon as a woman demands a pedastool you should be outta there, quick. And if any man puts you on the pedastool you should be weary. He's either got no backbone or a hidden agenda. Male and Female are both on equal footing - the magic happens when both see each other as the prize.

Imagine Mary thinking of herself as a prize? No. It's not a Catholic thought. Having high standards morally and personally is good. As is being detached in the spiritual sense (enough to discern but not so much that you are cut off emotionally). Being a diva who demands to be fought for and thought of as a queen simply for being born female is neo-feminist propaganda under the guise of a promotion of traditional chivalry and courtship.

Ever noticed how a lot of women with seemingly the highest standards end up with terrible husbands? That's because they've either settled with a loser who whiteknighted them or they got caught in the trap of a smooth talker who had a hidden secret/agenda. I've seen it again and again. The down to earth girls who just want a good man and don't play diva games are the ones who end up alright (secular or Catholic). This 'prize' stuff is passive-aggressive and usually a very forced and strained dating game.

Again, seen it a thousand times. It's a huge thing in the conservative/traditionalist world where a lot of girls are taught that men need to kneel before them and beg for to be their spouse because they've been brought up as angels and appear to know what it means to be a good wife. But in fact, they're often incredibly naive about it all and have a warped sense of the chemistry/relationship between men and women; between husband and wife. Catholic or not, diva types tend to poison their own well because the normal part of them wants a strong man, the Catholic part wants to be humble, but the diva part is attracting the weaklings and men who fulfill her every desire to be the 'queen'. Most young women snap out of this quickly once they realize that nobody wants to marry a diva or some of the men so far haven't been the cream of the crop (which is what they aim for but paradoxically never really reach).

Fight for the woman you love, sure. Slay the baddies and climb up her hair to get into the tower to be the prince charming. But if she's hiring mercenaries to test you and refuses to let down her hair because she just got it styled all to make it more of a challenge well... there are better women out there.

Being a good Catholic gentleman is not about being a puppy to a woman. Men and women were created equal but different. Complementary is what it's about. Advocating 'prize' stuff flips that around. Men can be Fathers. Woman can be Mothers. There is no Jesus without Mary; but Mary isn't going around telling everyone about it. Good Catholic men treat all women with respect, dignity, charity and kindness. If you're interested in someone, you just add in a little flirting and (appropriate) affection.

Being a strong masculine man with honor is not about being a flimsy and flowery charmer. Charm is a good thing; but allowing a woman to make herself out to be a prize makes your charm an end in itself rather than a means to an end (and good charm is a means, but it's not empty or meaningless).

It's great to treat your girlfriend or wife as special. That's a no brainer. It's one of the things I most look forward to when I am married - spoiling my wife (and, one day, kids please God!). But there's an intuitive kind of feeling you register between a woman who is genuinely happy and surprised with it, and who will reciprocate, and a woman who expects it and is waiting for the next round so that she can keep check on how well you're doing in terms of impressing her and flattering her elevated sense of self worth.

Don't ever idolize or idealize a woman (which is what this 'prize' stuff wants you to do).
No prizes, no pedastools. Just simple, Catholic courtship.

Pax to the max.
Very good and insightful comments!
I believe that in a sacramental marriage our spouse becomes our family, and should be seen as a blessing and treated accordingly.
A blessing is of much greater immeasurable value than any prize!


Aug 24th 2013 new
I am saying simply that women ought to be respected by men not a having personal sameness, because we are not 'equal' at all in that sense. Men should be looking out for the dignity of women and children in a special way, and women ought to be allowing men to do that. It goes beyond mere courtship. For example, men ought to hold doors for all women and children, and not just those to whom they are courting. This shouldn't be because men are less dignified, but because they are more so when they recognize the dignity of women because of the differences as GOD has created in them, and that those differences should be seen on the whole, and not in the limited view, "well, if she's my girlfriend/wife, then I'll do that sort of thing". Men ought to have it in their gut instincts to protect the personal dignity of women (and also children, for that matter) out of love for God. And women ought to not try to subtly or not so subtly challenge the personal differences in our dignities between man and woman. That's all I meant. I wasn't referring to anything subversive like tom-foolery (no pun intended) and sweet-talking, prevaricating and the like, in order to win a woman's affections by falseness.
Aug 24th 2013 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: Are they actually anti-male posts? Or just women over-generalizing when complaining about their experiences with those they happen to interact with on the site -- males (the same way the males over-generalize when complaining about women)?

I propose that every forum participant boycott any post that begins "Why do (men/women)..." or "I wish (men/women) would (not)..." Don't read them. Don't respond to them.

I agree that this thread has gotten a little too antagonistic. Where's the CM staff member to intervene and threaten to block it if it continues along this vein? I know one had done so when a post about "feeling discouraged" had veered off topic to the subject of divorce. I think this sort of intervention would be very appropriate her as well.

Peace to all,

Suzanne
Aug 24th 2013 new
Sorry, forgot to type the "e". I meant to say "here as well", missed the
Aug 24th 2013 new
(quote) Tom-975374 said: Men and women were created equal but different.  Good Catholic men treat all women with respect, dignity, charity and kindness.

Being a strong masculine man with honor is not about being a flimsy and flowery charmer. Charm is a good thing; but allowing a woman to make herself out to be a prize makes your charm an end in itself rather than a means to an end (and good charm is a means, but it's not empty or meaningless).

It's great to treat your girlfriend or wife as special. That's a no brainer. It's one of the things I most look forward to when I am married - spoiling my wife (and, one day, kids please God!). But there's an intuitive kind of feeling you register between a woman who is genuinely happy and surprised with it, and who will reciprocate, and a woman who expects it and is waiting for the next round so that she can keep check on how well you're doing in terms of impressing her and flattering her elevated sense of self worth.

Don't ever idolize or idealize a woman (which is what this 'prize' stuff wants you to do).
No prizes, no pedastools. Just simple, Catholic courtship.

Pax to the max.
Much of this is clearly what I was attempting to say:

Good Catholic men treat all women with respect, dignity, charity and kindness.
What you describing also of women who want to be flattered ---- ughhhh --- so terrible! Yes! This is so dangerous. Sometimes men do it innocently, some do it as a way of being the Silver Tongued Devil. And women do the same some times, but by different means, but the end goal is very much the same: flatter to sin, I mean, to 'win'.

We are on the same page for the most part, but I do believe that Mary constantly points attention back to her Son, reminding the servants to, "Do whatever he tells you."
Aug 24th 2013 new
(quote) Donna-1001468 said: Okay, I am going to get a ton of flack for this but here it is:

Why, as a woman of high value (which your beautiful profile clearly reflects), are you doing any initiating?

Ladies, WE are the prize here!

It is just my opinion and experience that if you represent yourself honestly in your profile, someone matching your interests is going to find you attractive and interesting. Then, if he has courage (and we all want a man with courage), he will take the next step and initiate contact with you. At that point, YOU can decide if the man that is showing interest is "worthy".

I say "worthy" because we, as women, must be very selective ~ Too many of our sisters are abused, or in some way hurting due to poor choices in men. Yes, this takes longer. Yes, it takes patience, but a BIG YES in that when that one man that "gets" you and is naturally attracted to you comes along, it is soooo worth the wait!

I can see the hate mail coming, but I just wanted to share that in my opinion, this is how it works best for me, not only on a dating site, but in the real world.

A "prize" denotes something to be 'won'. Yes, 'winning' someone's trust and affection can be done by honest means as well as deceptive means, but God sees everything and we'll each have to pay every penny in the end in restitution for any and all evil deeds.

I think all that was intended in these early posts was that women should not be the pursuers of men, at least, if you are of a traditional value based mindset.

Also, I want to defend the initial poster that there is nothing wrong with a kind word or two. I believe she means "friends" even in the sense of being friendly by at least acknowledging the person. I try to do this, and yes, some men still become wrongly encouraged by this. Then you just say, "No, sorry, I am not interested; I do, however, wish you well" in so many words. Not everyone who is friendly to the opposite sex means to imply romantic interest at all. I think that there are so many people (men and women) that use the distance of the internet as a way to not empathize for those who reach out to them. If someone came up in person to these same people, would they completely ignore them, and not return even a smile? Would they worry that a mere cordial word be misconstrued? Perhaps, but still, they ought to try to acknowledge the person even if they are not interested and just be kind. I think that was the other point of the initial post. It wasn't male bashing, it was just a young woman expressing her experiences here and her frustration at the lack of consideration for her feelings, even by the absence of cordiality.
Aug 24th 2013 new
(quote) Lynea-297530 said: Good Catholic men treat all women with respect, dignity, charity and kindness.

Isn't this the way all people, especially Christians, should treat all people?

Aug 24th 2013 new
Just look at how many men respond to these posts as compared to the number of women. I wonder why men even bother to go on these sites if they can't even bother to respond. If a woman does not initiate communication, there wouldn't be much communication at all.

Gentlemen--I'd like to know why you don't respond to women? If you've already found your special someone, why not just go off the site for a while?

I've had more success on the secular sites, sorry to say.
Aug 24th 2013 new
Can't paste the YouTube links, but lookup ... "When Will I Be Loved" by ...
1 - Everly Brothers, 1960
2 - Linda Ronstadt, who just revealed she has Parkinson's Disease.
Aug 24th 2013 new
The World would be better place if every one " ALL" got along . But God gave us free will . as said earlier and it can be meant for every one Please get over past hurt move forward . put God in your heart . Stop the bashing . There are many real nice people here . Everyone has a view . Hold all anger for the proper place confession . Thats why i am here then read the forums , blogs and articles .
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