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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Sep 10th 2013 new
(quote) John-971967 said: In other words, I find no need to pick at it, if I dare to do it at all.
Please forgive the above sentence. I should recall that is Catholic dogma via Vatican I. No beef there at all!!!
Sep 10th 2013 new
(quote) Chelsea-743484 said: It's a great offense to profess the Fathers of the Church to have ignored what they ought to know. It is also a great offense to profess that the evolution of knowledge changes truth in time.

Chelsea,

You may find "great offense" in Greg's comments, but I see none. I'm not exactly sure which of Greg's points you find offensive to the sensibilities of a Catholic or Catholic doctrine, so I'll pick a couple of big ones.

Concerning evolution, there is nothing within Catholic teaching that says that someone cannot believe in evolution, creationism or some combination of the two concepts (or maybe some theory yet to be conceived). If one believes that evolution is the way in which God put his creation upon the earth, then Catholic teaching simply says that at some point in the evolutionary process, God, in some fashion instilled a soul into two unique beings (whom are commonly called Adam & Eve), and that all living human beings descend from them to the present day.

As for the earth (and everything upon it) being created in 6, 24 hour days. There is nothing in Catholic teaching that binds Catholics to this literal description. These are periods of time. Whether this happened over 6, 24 hours days or millions of years, a Catholic is free to believe as they are informed by their own reason.

Incidentally, I have named these first humans Adam and Eve. If they had actually named each other Tim and Betty, Catholic teaching is not going to fall apart at the seams.

The Bible is not a science book and it was never intended to be one. But just because it is not a science book does not mean that it contradicts sound science, because it does not.

I'll stop here.

Just my thoughts.

Ed
Sep 10th 2013 new
(quote) ED-20630 said: You may find "great offense" in Greg's comments, 
Oops! I meant Gerald, not Greg. I have brothers with both name, so it is easy for me to get them mixed up.

Ed
Sep 11th 2013 new
I'm sorry that "great offense" was taken to my post. I should apologize for saying I have little patience because we should all have patience with each other and for differing opinions, in charity, so I apologize for that.

The issue here is having a proper understand of Faith and Reason. The two are not incompatible, although one would sometimes think they were with literalists badmouthing reason and science on the one hand and modernists denying faith and trying to rely on reason for everything on the other hand. In my view, and I think that of the Church, both approaches are wrong.

Let me try an oversimplified metaphor to illustrate my point. In Apostolic Days people thought that thuinder and lightning were the voice of God making a point to men. Now we know that ions are charged by rising gasses and evaporating moisture and large voltage discharges release the electrical potential according to the laws of physics. BUT, it could happen that a particular lightning flash or thunder strike was allowed/intended to happen by God at a certain place and a certain time for a particular Divine reason, and that purpose might have something to do with communicating with men. So, the laws of physics can be true and the fact that what happens in nature is according to God's plan can also be true at the same time.

Whenever it appears that reason and faith contradict, it is important to see if we can see how they can be reconciled. Often that means we have to give up some of our oversimplified ways of looking at Traditional interpretations of Scriptures or Church teachings and see the Divine message behind the literal words. When the human race was young, God spoke to us like children. Children take things literally. Now that we have learned a bit more, we can see that he still speaks to us, but at a slightly more sophisticated level. God's wisdom is so far above ours that we cannot ever fully comprehend it, but we perhaps can see it a little better as our knowledge grows. The Church does evolve as does mankind's knowledge. The Church calls this Development, perhaps to avoid rousing evolution haters into a frothing frenzy. :-)

So, we now understand the creation stories in Genesis and some other parts of Scripture like Job, to be allegorical with an important Divine message that is still valid. We no longer look to them to explain literal things because we have used our God given intelligence to work out through reason better explanations of history and science.

I think most Catholics understand this, and it was taught even at the Catholic Junior Highschool level when I was a boy, so I have a little difficulty understanding why people want to go back to the days of ignorance and claim that we have to interpret Genesis literally. Why are they so threatened by evolution or physics or cosmology? Reason is not our god and should not be our god, but reason is a specifically human gift of God and should be respected and used, not thrown away in some naive attempt at blind faith. Faith should not be blind, but open eyed, intelligent, reasoned. The Catholic Faith has always been a faith for intellectuals as well as mystics. Let's leave the Fundamentalism to the Evangelicals and the Muslims!
Sep 11th 2013 new
(quote) Gerald-283546 said: I'm sorry that "great offense" was taken to my post. I should apologize for saying I have little patience because we should all have patience with each other and for differing opinions, in charity, so I apologize for that.

The issue here is having a proper understand of Faith and Reason. The two are not incompatible, although one would sometimes think they were with literalists badmouthing reason and science on the one hand and modernists denying faith and trying to rely on reason for everything on the other hand. In my view, and I think that of the Church, both approaches are wrong.

Let me try an oversimplified metaphor to illustrate my point. In Apostolic Days people thought that thuinder and lightning were the voice of God making a point to men. Now we know that ions are charged by rising gasses and evaporating moisture and large voltage discharges release the electrical potential according to the laws of physics. BUT, it could happen that a particular lightning flash or thunder strike was allowed/intended to happen by God at a certain place and a certain time for a particular Divine reason, and that purpose might have something to do with communicating with men. So, the laws of physics can be true and the fact that what happens in nature is according to God's plan can also be true at the same time.

Whenever it appears that reason and faith contradict, it is important to see if we can see how they can be reconciled. Often that means we have to give up some of our oversimplified ways of looking at Traditional interpretations of Scriptures or Church teachings and see the Divine message behind the literal words. When the human race was young, God spoke to us like children. Children take things literally. Now that we have learned a bit more, we can see that he still speaks to us, but at a slightly more sophisticated level. God's wisdom is so far above ours that we cannot ever fully comprehend it, but we perhaps can see it a little better as our knowledge grows. The Church does evolve as does mankind's knowledge. The Church calls this Development, perhaps to avoid rousing evolution haters into a frothing frenzy. :-)

So, we now understand the creation stories in Genesis and some other parts of Scripture like Job, to be allegorical with an important Divine message that is still valid. We no longer look to them to explain literal things because we have used our God given intelligence to work out through reason better explanations of history and science.

I think most Catholics understand this, and it was taught even at the Catholic Junior Highschool level when I was a boy, so I have a little difficulty understanding why people want to go back to the days of ignorance and claim that we have to interpret Genesis literally. Why are they so threatened by evolution or physics or cosmology? Reason is not our god and should not be our god, but reason is a specifically human gift of God and should be respected and used, not thrown away in some naive attempt at blind faith. Faith should not be blind, but open eyed, intelligent, reasoned. The Catholic Faith has always been a faith for intellectuals as well as mystics. Let's leave the Fundamentalism to the Evangelicals and the Muslims!
If the Catholic Church was at all concerned that Catholic doctrine and scientific study would conflict and interfere with each other, or create some sort of intractable conflict between faith and reason, it would make no sense that it supports and encourages scientific study of all types (which it does).

An small except from this source >>> www.catholiceducation.org :
"One might try to explain such distinguished Catholic scientists as rare individuals who dared to rebel against the institutional Church, which opposes science. However, the Catholic Church as an institution funds, sponsors, and supports scientific research in the Pontifical Academy of Science and in the departments of science found in every Catholic university across the world, including those governed by Roman Catholic bishops, such as The Catholic University of America. This financial and institutional support of science by the Church began at the very birth of science in seventeenth-century Europe and continues today. Even Church buildings themselves were not only used for religious purposes but designed in part to foster scientific knowledge."....

Also, where would the science of astronomy be without the support of the Catholic Church through the ages:
www.vaticanobservatory.org


As Catholics, we need not be afraid of good science.

Ed
Sep 13th 2013 new
(quote) ED-20630 said: Chelsea,

You may find "great offense" in Greg's comments, but I see none. I'm not exactly sure which of Greg's points you find offensive to the sensibilities of a Catholic or Catholic doctrine, so I'll pick a couple of big ones.

Concerning evolution, there is nothing within Catholic teaching that says that someone cannot believe in evolution, creationism or some combination of the two concepts (or maybe some theory yet to be conceived). If one believes that evolution is the way in which God put his creation upon the earth, then Catholic teaching simply says that at some point in the evolutionary process, God, in some fashion instilled a soul into two unique beings (whom are commonly called Adam & Eve), and that all living human beings descend from them to the present day.

As for the earth (and everything upon it) being created in 6, 24 hour days. There is nothing in Catholic teaching that binds Catholics to this literal description. These are periods of time. Whether this happened over 6, 24 hours days or millions of years, a Catholic is free to believe as they are informed by their own reason.

Incidentally, I have named these first humans Adam and Eve. If they had actually named each other Tim and Betty, Catholic teaching is not going to fall apart at the seams.

The Bible is not a science book and it was never intended to be one. But just because it is not a science book does not mean that it contradicts sound science, because it does not.

I'll stop here.

Just my thoughts.

Ed
Ed, by what authority do you teach these heresies?
Sep 13th 2013 new
I am finding so many basic and huge issues with some of the things being stated as "Catholic teaching" in this thread, that I simply don't want to waste time on taking every one of them apart. There are way too many lies that are being tossed around here.

www.amazon.com

www.audiosancto.org.


HERE IS A PROTESTANT, who doesn't really say anything that is incompatible with Catholic teaching in this particular video, and he does say a lot of solid scientific facts that disprove the improvable theories used to form the false religion known as "the theory of evolution": www.youtube.com






Sep 13th 2013 new
Those are links whose text have been reduced, but they are actual links to resources I am recommending.
Sep 13th 2013 new
(quote) Lynea-297530 said: Those are links whose text have been reduced, but they are actual links to resources I am recommending.
FYI - hyperlinks in the CM forums always display only the domain name portion of the URL. You can see the full path by hovering over the hyperlink.

When entering a post with a very long or complicated URL, I recommend using the Preview feature and clicking on the link in the preview window to verify the expected page is displayed. If it is not, or if you have any doubts, you can use a link shortening service such as tinyurl.com and posting the shortened link.

Sep 13th 2013 new
(quote) Lynea-297530 said: Ed, by what authority do you teach these heresies?
Lynea,

First, I am not teaching. This is a forum. If you doubt what I write then check out my sources and others that you may find. Second, my comments are not heresies. I am sorry if you see them as such, but in my opinion, you are incorrect.

The documents below relate to Catholic teaching on evolution, creationism, Adam & Eve and the 6-days of creation. None of the documents contradict anything that I have written in my prior post.

These are links to numerous documents; articles and papers and other writings with references from the CCC, EWTN library archives, Pope JPII, Pope Benedict (I believe), Pope Pius XII and others. There are articles for light reading (with references) and in-depth documents (with a great deal of detail). They are not in any particular order. If you don't like my references, then you are welcome to search for your own. They are not difficult to find.


---------------------------

Evolutionary theory not incompatible with Catholicism, Vatican official says

Vatican City, Sep 17, 2008 / 05:23 am (CNA).- The president of the Pontifical Council for Culture has said that evolutionary theory is not incompatible with the teachings of the Catholic Church, insisting that the theory of biological change over time was never condemned by the Church.

www.catholicnewsagency.com

---------------------------

EVOLUTION: A CATHOLIC PERSPECTIVE

(A Catholic position paper - March 1984)

www.ewtn.com

----------------------------

Adam, Eve, Evolution, 6 days of creation, etc.

www.catholic.com

------------------------------

EVOLUTION AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH: ARE THEY IN CONFLICT?

www.americancatholic.org

-------------------------------

CCC paragraph 159

www.usccb.org

----------------------------

Certain aspects of human evolution are covered in

ENCYCLICAL -HUMANI GENERIS OF THE HOLY FATHER PIUS XII

12 August 1950

www.vatican.va

-----------------------------

Ed

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