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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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Sep 14 new
(quote) Tim-734178 said: We don't even know for sure Hitlers in Hell. I'm pretty sure the only person in hell formally defined by the Church fathers is Judas.


Other than Jesus' comment in the Gospels ("woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed. It were better for him, if that man had not been born." Matt 26:24, Mark 14:21), do the Fathers say anything about Judas' judgment?

There have been some private revelations that certain souls are condemned, but the Church does not, to the best of my knowledge, teach officially about any others. There is both official teaching and private revelation that many, many souls are damned, but not their identities.

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Sep 14 new
I agree w/Patrick that there is a lot of passing judgment going on. It is not Christian nor Catholic . We have divine mercy and Christ says that if the worst sinner says this on his deathbed, He will stand between that person and HIs Father's judgment. I agree, let God do the judging. We truly do not know what is in a person's heart and soul. Someone's sins may seem apparent to us, but we do not know what state of grace one is in--truly. We should not judge. It's not ours to judge.
I don't know about you, but my house has glass windows. I try to keep them clean, but, they're not spotless. Let's leave it at that.

Sep 14 new
(quote) Marge-938695 said: Oh, Jerry, I see it all the time...though not so much now as 7 years ago.
Examples, please?

Sep 14 new
(quote) Tim-734178 said: We don't even know for sure Hitlers in Hell. I'm pretty sure the only person in hell formally defined by the Church fathers is Judas.

That being said, in one sense God doesn't decide who goes to hell, we do. If we commit grave sin, don't repent and continue on as it wasn't if we die we sent ourselves.

God set rules. ( He gets to do that). As long as we follow the rules and participate in life through charity well we are in good shape.

Without His grace we can't follow the rules. So we start there asking for grace!
The Church does not even say that Judas is in hell. Even though Christ's words would appear to indicate that he is
Sep 14 new
(quote) Patrick-341178 said: I have been a catholic match member on and off over the years and find it to be an excellent site. Initially, I just ignored the forums and focused only on the dating part. I then realized I was missing out on quite a bit.

Overwhelmingly, I enjoy the posts that I read - even those I have strong disagreement. I appreciate members taking the time to give their honest and heartfelt feedback on particular topics - with one exception: the you better be a perfect catholic or you are going to hell posts.

I mean - is that really necessary? In all my years of catholic education and attending mass, I don't think I ever heard the fire and brimstone "you better obey catholic doctrine or get ready for an eternity in a lake of fire." For those who feel strongly about obeying catholic doctrine, by all means make your point - but do it a positive way like Pope John Paul or even Christopher West (who I personally am not a huge fan, but at least I have never heard him condemn anyone to hell.)

Now, am I saying the topic of hell isn't important? No - not at all. I do believe it is a place for the worst of mankind' souls such as Hitler, Hussein and Kermit Gosnell (hopefully he repents to save himself). But, is it appropriate for anyone who may have had pre-marital sex? Shouldn't we atleast leave that to God to decide? Also, what about purgatory anyways? We as catholics are suppose to believe in that as a way of purifying us who are not yet ready for heaven.

My suggestion is if someone wants to start a topic on hell - go ahead. Make your posts in this forum if you want. Otherwise, how bout making your points in not such a condemning fashion.

Just a simple question.

The Church teaches that even a single mortal sin, unconfessed and/or unrepented from, puts a a person in hell.

What is it about that simple statement that you do not understand?
Sep 14 new
(quote) Chris-589554 said: I agree w/Patrick that there is a lot of passing judgment going on. It is not Christian nor Catholic . We have divine mercy and Christ says that if the worst sinner says this on his deathbed, He will stand between that person and HIs Father's judgment. I agree, let God do the judging. We truly do not know what is in a person's heart and soul. Someone's sins may seem apparent to us, but we do not know what state of grace one is in--truly. We should not judge. It's not ours to judge.
I don't know about you, but my house has glass windows. I try to keep them clean, but, they're not spotless. Let's leave it at that.

Then I pose the same question to you that Patrick has not responded to: please provide links to some of these posts that you feel are judgmental.

Perhaps you have seen some posts I haven't, but in my experience the posts that people claim are judgmental are not:

It is not judgmental to point out that certain acts are grave sins: that is either objective fact or an error of fact, depending on whether the claim is accurate.

It is not judgmental to point out that when a person dies with unrepented (can I make that any more clear?) mortal sin on their soul their soul is banished to hell: this is a very clear teaching of the Church.

What is judgmental is to claim that a certain person will go to hell (or to heaven, unless they have been canonized by the Church). The only such posts I can recall having seen on CM were judging notorious personalities such as Hitler, Stalin, Judas Iscariot, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc. -- not other CM members.

The problem seems to be that many people are uncomfortable with the concept that what constitutes grave sin is objective, not subject to individual interpretation or belief. Unable to refute that which they don't wish to accept, they resort to attempting to discredit the source of information with the cries of "judgmental!"

Sep 14 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: The Church does not even say that Judas is in hell. Even though Christ's words would appear to indicate that he is
I would have to go back and research it but I believe the early Church fathers agree since he didnt repent he's in Hell. Ill see if I can locate some citations.

My major point is that the Church declairs Saints. Not so much on the damned part. It's possible for perfect contrition even in the worst of situations. That puts everything in a different light.

But the Church's teaching on repentant sin is very straightforward as you have pointed out.
Sep 14 new
(quote) Tim-734178 said: I would have to go back and research it but I believe the early Church fathers agree since he didnt repent he's in Hell. Ill see if I can locate some citations.

My major point is that the Church declairs Saints. Not so much on the damned part. It's possible for perfect contrition even in the worst of situations. That puts everything in a different light.

But the Church's teaching on repentant sin is very straightforward as you have pointed out.
Unrepentant sin I meant. Ugh
Sep 14 new
(quote) Marge-938695 said: Nicely put.
However, I'm with Patrick: it's not the responsibility of anyone here to judge anyone else.
Teach? Yes.
Lead? Yes.
Inspire? Definitely.
The self-righteous can sit down and mind their own souls. God decides who goes to hell. No one else.
I agree completely.

The next time you see it happen, give them hell -- right then and there.

In the meantime, raising it as an unsubstantiated charge in other discussions is just a red herring.

Sep 14 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: Just a simple question.

The Church teaches that even a single mortal sin, unconfessed and/or unrepented from, puts a a person in hell.

What is it about that simple statement that you do not understand?
That is the question to ask.
The 'judgement' people claim is happening in posts is only the truth of :
The Church teaches that even a single mortal sin, unconfessed and/or unrepented from, puts a a person in hell.
being stated when someone tries to say that pre-marital sex or another sin is not sinful.
Of course God is merciful and forgiving, but only if a sinner is truly sorry, repents, and strives mightily never to sin again, not just says, "Oh, God is merciful and will forgive all my sins" and continues on happily in the sinful ways.
I'm sure no one likes to have their pleasures taken from them or have them pointed out as sinful pleasures, but isn't knowing what is right and what is wrong our duty as adult Catholics?
Knowing I'm about to indulge in gluttony (one of the seven deadly sins - wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, gluttony) helps stop me from serving myself a third bowl of ice cream with all the toppings, even though it tastes soooooo good and I really want it and would enjoy every mouthful of it.
Understanding that pre-marital sex or masturbation, using porn, reading steamy books, watching r or x rated movies, etc are sin ought to help people fight against and avoid them.
Telling the truth is not judgmental -- it's love.
Telling people it's up to them to decide if it's sinful -- that is giving them a push down the wrong path.
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