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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

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Oct 23rd 2013 new
Having read actual interviews of this pope is a good way to start. Not only do you get what he actually said but you get it in context.
I have yet to hear one thing from this pope that suggests he is not 100% catholic in his teaching or his attitude.

Paraphrasing what the pope says on an island with no context is a very easy formula for things to get murky.
In fact it seems like this murkiness is being created in some instances because the pope rubs some the wrong way.
If one genuinely wants to question this pope--then do not paraphrase; and do not paraphrase or even quote without including the rest of the dialogue.
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Oct 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Tom-112790 said: Having read actual interviews of this pope is a good way to start. Not only do you get what he actually said but you get it in context.
I have yet to hear one thing from this pope that suggests he is not 100% catholic in his teaching or his attitude.

Paraphrasing what the pope says on an island with no context is a very easy formula for things to get murky.
In fact it seems like this murkiness is being created in some instances because the pope rubs some the wrong way.
If one genuinely wants to question this pope--then do not paraphrase; and do not paraphrase or even quote without including the rest of the dialogue.
Good advice. There is one other problem to be aware of -- inaccurate translations. Unfortunately, these are much harder to detect if one is not fluent in the original source language.

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Oct 23rd 2013 new

Can Atheists Be Pleasing to God?

www.catholicmatch.com
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Oct 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: Good advice. There is one other problem to be aware of -- inaccurate translations. Unfortunately, these are much harder to detect if one is not fluent in the original source language.

I agree with your comment concerning inaccurate translations. I suspect that we can have good confidence in this particular English translation of the Holy Father's 3-day interview.

Concerning translations....

The actual English translation of the transcript of the Pope Francis's interview, as printed in "America - The National Catholic Review" is at the link below. I have copied the Editor's note below. It is printed at the beginning of the interview. It seems to me that they did as thorough a job as one could reasonably expect to provide an accurate transcript:
1st - The interview was conducted in person by the editor in chief of La Civilta Cattolica, the Italian Jesuit Journal.
2nd - The interview was conducted in Italian.
3rd - The Italian text was officially approved (I presume by Vatican officials).
4th - After the text was officially approved, America commissioned a team of five independent experts to translate it into English.

My comment.... I presume that if there had been any inaccurate translations in the text, we would have heard of it by now. I suppose that there are at least 10s of thousands of Catholics that are fluent in both Italian and English. Perhaps even a few of them would have spoken up by now if they found differences between the Italian and English versions.... Just my 2 cents.


americamagazine.org
Editors Note: This interview with Pope Francis took place over the course of three meetings during August 2013 in Rome. The interview was conducted in person by Antonio Spadaro, S.J., editor in chief of La Civilt Cattolica, the Italian Jesuit journal. Father Spadaro conducted the interview on behalf of La Civilt Cattolica,
America and several other major Jesuit journals around the world. The editorial teams at each of the journals prepared questions and sent them to Father Spadaro, who then consolidated and organized them. The interview was conducted in Italian. After the Italian text was officially approved, America commissioned a team of five independent experts to translate it into English. America is solely responsible for the accuracy of this translation. This interview is copyrighted by America Press and cannot be used, except for brief quotations, without written permission.

Ed
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Oct 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Tom-112790 said: Having read actual interviews of this pope is a good way to start. Not only do you get what he actually said but you get it in context.
I have yet to hear one thing from this pope that suggests he is not 100% catholic in his teaching or his attitude.

Paraphrasing what the pope says on an island with no context is a very easy formula for things to get murky.
In fact it seems like this murkiness is being created in some instances because the pope rubs some the wrong way.
If one genuinely wants to question this pope--then do not paraphrase; and do not paraphrase or even quote without including the rest of the dialogue.
Tom,

I agree. When I have read the actual English translations of the transcripts of his interviews, I have not found anything that falls outside of Catholic teaching. Now the way that his various comments have been presented or spun in the secular media is often quite a different thing than reading his comments in the full context of his interview.

This is the English translation of his recent 3-day interview:
americamagazine.org

I become quite frustrated with (especially) Catholics that paraphrase and provide "approximate quotes" without any of the context in which a particular comment was made. Often these are the same Catholics that complain the Pope Francis is being contradictory and adding to confusion..... Seems like quite a double standard to me.

I have also seen instances where someone insists that Francis has said something very contrary to Catholic teaching, but yet it appears to me to fall right in line with the Catechism (like my comments in an above post concerning "conscience").

Ed
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Oct 23rd 2013 new
(quote) ED-20630 said: Tom,

I agree. When I have read the actual English translations of the transcripts of his interviews, I have not found anything that falls outside of Catholic teaching. Now the way that his various comments have been presented or spun in the secular media is often quite a different thing than reading his comments in the full context of his interview.

This is the English translation of his recent 3-day interview:
http://americamagazine.org/pope-interview

I become quite frustrated with (especially) Catholics that paraphrase and provide "approximate quotes" without any of the context in which a particular comment was made. Often these are the same Catholics that complain the Pope Francis is being contradictory and adding to confusion..... Seems like quite a double standard to me.

I have also seen instances where someone insists that Francis has said something very contrary to Catholic teaching, but yet it appears to me to fall right in line with the Catechism (like my comments in an above post concerning "conscience").

Ed
What bothers me the most is how quickly some here are to criticize, always based on what comes from the generally hostile to the Church media.

And when the information they rely on is proven false or out of context, they never apologize. If challenged about their constant carping, they sanctimoniously put on the cloak of fraternal correction.

Within hours of his election, a poster here posted stuff about how he left two Jesuit priests in Argentina out to dry as well as other libels that all originated from a Marxist, anti-catholic, Argentinian journalist. And the poster never had the decency to apologize or even be ashamed of what he had done.

Ed, you have quoted extensively from the Catechism to show that Francis' comments about following one's conscience is wholly consistent with Church teaching. Yet we see no retraction of the accusation that he was teaching error.

Of all the criticisms leveled at him here in the forums only one even comes close to having any value. And then only because the carpers don't really understand the difference between a change in a discipline (even though it might have a lot of tradition behind it) and something which is an immutable Tradition.

Apparently, they have never learned the lesson in the fable of the boy who cried wolf too often.

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Oct 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: Ed, you have quoted extensively from the Catechism to show that Francis' comments about following one's conscience is wholly consistent with Church teaching. Yet we see no retraction of the accusation that he was teaching error.

My hunch (though I can't really prove it) is that some Catholics view the Catechism (as published during JPII's papacy) as a post Vatican-II document that therefore cannot be fully relied upon to faithfully present the fullness of Catholic teaching on some issues. I suspect that even this latest publication of the Catechism is suspicious to some.

Ed
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Oct 23rd 2013 new
And there are some on here that think that since the Catachesim of the Council of Trent was before the super council of Vatican 2 it's useless as well. Error in both directions.

In fact it has been recommended that one read BOTH.
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Oct 23rd 2013 new
(quote) ED-20630 said: My hunch (though I can't really prove it) is that some Catholics view the Catechism (as published during JPII's papacy) as a post Vatican-II document that therefore cannot be fully relied upon to faithfully present the fullness of Catholic teaching on some issues. I suspect that even this latest publication of the Catechism is suspicious to some.

Ed
Yes I believe that you are correct Ed.
Question 14
What are we to think of the New Catechism?

This question illustrates the fundamental differences between the SSPX and the Conciliar traditionalists or conservatives. These latter are often seen defending both the traditional Latin Mass and the new Catechism but not openly attacking either the Novus Ordo Missae or Vatican II.

The SSPX on the other hand defends the traditional catechisms and therefore the traditional Latin Mass, and so attacks the Novus Ordo Missae, Vatican II and the new Catechism, all of which more or less undermine our unchangeable Catholic faith.

Conservatives defend the Catechism of the Catholic Church for its re-affirmation of teachings silenced or denied by out rightly modernist catechisms; the Society rejects it though because it is an attempt to formalize and propagate the teachings of Vatican II. Pope John Paul II agrees with this:

The Catechism was also indispensable (i.e., as well as the 1983 Code of Canon Law), in order that all the richness of the teaching of the Church following the Second Vatican Council could be preserved in a new synthesis and be given a new direction. (Pope John Paul II, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, London, Jonathen Cape, 1994, p. 164)

One need but consider the 806 citations from Vatican II, a number which amounts on average to one citation every three-and-a-half paragraphs throughout the 2,865 paragraphs of the Catechism.

In particular, the novelties of Vatican II appear in the following paragraphs:

  • an infatuation with the dignity of man (225; 369; 1700; 1929...),

  • such that we may hope for the salvation of all the baptized (1682ff),

  • even non-Catholics (818),

  • or those who commit suicide (2283),

  • and of all the unbaptised, whether adults (847),

  • or infants (1261);

  • which is the basis of all rights (1738; 1930; 1935) including that of religious liberty (2106ff),

  • and the motive of all morality (1706; 1881; 2354; 2402; 2407, etc.),

  • a commitment to ecumenism (820f; 1399; 1401) because all religions are instruments of salvation (819; 838-843; 2104),

  • collegiality (879-885),

  • over-emphasis on the priesthood of the faithful (873; 1547; 1140ff, etc.).

Now, just as he who denies but one article of Faith loses the Faith [principle 7], so a teacher who errs on one point alone proves himself fallible, and, renders all he teaches questionable.

Just as the Second Vatican Council is not an authority to quote even where it propounds Catholic teaching (it does not do so infallibly and clearly), so this Catechism is not an authority of Catholic belief because of the modern deviations which it encompasses.

Those who defend this Catechism are supporting the innovations of Vatican II.

archives.sspx.org
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Oct 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: What bothers me the most is how quickly some here are to criticize, always based on what comes from the generally hostile to the Church media.

And when the information they rely on is proven false or out of context, they never apologize. If challenged about their constant carping, they sanctimoniously put on the cloak of fraternal correction.

Within hours of his election, a poster here posted stuff about how he left two Jesuit priests in Argentina out to dry as well as other libels that all originated from a Marxist, anti-catholic, Argentinian journalist. And the poster never had the decency to apologize or even be ashamed of what he had done.

Ed, you have quoted extensively from the Catechism to show that Francis' comments about following one's conscience is wholly consistent with Church teaching. Yet we see no retraction of the accusation that he was teaching error.

Of all the criticisms leveled at him here in the forums only one even comes close to having any value. And then only because the carpers don't really understand the difference between a change in a discipline (even though it might have a lot of tradition behind it) and something which is an immutable Tradition.

Apparently, they have never learned the lesson in the fable of the boy who cried wolf too often.

Can you be more specific about this Marxist Journalist topic? Refresh our memories? Was the topic about the Latin Mass being suppressed by in Argentina by Archbishop Bergoglios (now Pope Francis) while he served as Archbishop?
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