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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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Oct 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: Can you be more specific about this Marxist Journalist topic? Refresh our memories? Was the topic about the Latin Mass being suppressed by in Argentina by Archbishop Bergoglios (now Pope Francis) while he served as Archbishop?
I didn't mean it as a rhetorical question.Is that the topic you are referring to?
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Oct 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: I didn't mean it as a rhetorical question.Is that the topic you are referring to?
I meant this question for Paul.
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Oct 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Tim-734178 said: And there are some on here that think that since the Catachesim of the Council of Trent was before the super council of Vatican 2 it's useless as well. Error in both directions.

In fact it has been recommended that one read BOTH.
Yet, there is no inconsistency between either of them.
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Oct 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: Yes I believe that you are correct Ed.
Question 14
What are we to think of the New Catechism?

This question illustrates the fundamental differences between the SSPX and the Conciliar traditionalists or conservatives. These latter are often seen defending both the traditional Latin Mass and the new Catechism but not openly attacking either the Novus Ordo Missae or Vatican II.

The SSPX on the other hand defends the traditional catechisms and therefore the traditional Latin Mass, and so attacks the Novus Ordo Missae, Vatican II and the new Catechism, all of which more or less undermine our unchangeable Catholic faith.

Conservatives defend the Catechism of the Catholic Church for its re-affirmation of teachings silenced or denied by out rightly modernist catechisms; the Society rejects it though because it is an attempt to formalize and propagate the teachings of Vatican II. Pope John Paul II agrees with this:

The Catechism was also indispensable (i.e., as well as the 1983 Code of Canon Law), in order that all the richness of the teaching of the Church following the Second Vatican Council could be preserved in a new synthesis and be given a new direction. (Pope John Paul II, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, London, Jonathen Cape, 1994, p. 164)

One need but consider the 806 citations from Vatican II, a number which amounts on average to one citation every three-and-a-half paragraphs throughout the 2,865 paragraphs of the Catechism.

In particular, the novelties of Vatican II appear in the following paragraphs:

an infatuation with the dignity of man (225; 369; 1700; 1929...),

such that we may hope for the salvation of all the baptized (1682ff),

even non-Catholics (818),

or those who commit suicide (2283),

and of all the unbaptised, whether adults (847),

or infants (1261);

which is the basis of all rights (1738; 1930; 1935) including that of religious liberty (2106ff),

and the motive of all morality (1706; 1881; 2354; 2402; 2407, etc.),

a commitment to ecumenism (820f; 1399; 1401) because all religions are instruments of salvation (819; 838-843; 2104),

collegiality (879-885),

over-emphasis on the priesthood of the faithful (873; 1547; 1140ff, etc.).

Now, just as he who denies but one article of Faith loses the Faith [principle 7], so a teacher who errs on one point alone proves himself fallible, and, renders all he teaches questionable.

Just as the Second Vatican Council is not an authority to quote even where it propounds Catholic teaching (it does not do so infallibly and clearly), so this Catechism is not an authority of Catholic belief because of the modern deviations which it encompasses.

Those who defend this Catechism are supporting the innovations of Vatican II.

http://archives.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q14_new_catechism.htm
But the SSPX is not an authority.

Although Benedict removed the excommunication of the 4 illicitly ordained Bishops, they remain separated from the Church by their own actions. Because of Benedict's action, the SSPX is not deemed to be in formal or de juro schism. They are, however, in de facto schism. As a result any commentary they may have remains highly suspect.

Vatican II and the new Catechism consistently teach what the Church has taught for 2000 years. No council is considered infallible unless and until its documents and teachings are approved by the Pope. All Vatican II documents and its teachings have been so approved.

Vatican II did not create any new teachings. The ground it covers are the consistent teachings and Traditions of the Church. Anyone who says otherwise either has not read them or they do not understand them; probably both.
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Oct 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: Can you be more specific about this Marxist Journalist topic? Refresh our memories? Was the topic about the Latin Mass being suppressed by in Argentina by Archbishop Bergoglios (now Pope Francis) while he served as Archbishop?
The Latin Mass was not suppressed by Pope Francis when he was Archbishop. He did not do so in his own diocese. Like any other Bishop, he had no power to suppress it in any other Argentinian Diocese.

He did not hang two Jesuit priests out to dry and in fact was personally responsible for their release as both priests have confirmed.

As Archbishop he did not support Liberation Theology in any manner. He condemned it. He did not work hand in glove with the Peronistas or any other dictator. In fact he fought them.

Since you have now demonstrated no factual knowledge of what did or did not happen in his Diocese or in Argentina in general, or of the power a Bishop has, do you have the humility to admit you are misinformed. Or do you prefer to keep falsely criticizing him?
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Oct 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: The Latin Mass was not suppressed by Pope Francis when he was Archbishop. He did not do so in his own diocese. Like any other Bishop, he had no power to suppress it in any other Argentinian Diocese.

He did not hang two Jesuit priests out to dry and in fact was personally responsible for their release as both priests have confirmed.

As Archbishop he did not support Liberation Theology in any manner. He condemned it. He did not work hand in glove with the Peronistas or any other dictator. In fact he fought them.

Since you have now demonstrated no factual knowledge of what did or did not happen in his Diocese or in Argentina in general, or of the power a Bishop has, do you have the humility to admit you are misinformed. Or do you prefer to keep falsely criticizing him?
rorate-caeli.blogspot.comI am still trying to figure out what you are talking about.Is this the article?
This Blog
This Blog

How Summorum Pontificum was blocked and trampled on in
Buenos Aires: facts, not fantasy and disinformation

Summorum is "implemented" in Buenos Aires
- it says so right here in my travel guide!

Wow, people who know nothing of the Argentine situation suddenly know a lot. It really is not enough to know what dulce de leche is or that it is the land of the tango to be aware of what goes on in Buenos Aires. And some are spreading disinformation about a diocese they do not even know! Unbelievable. But let us go back to facts not from gringos but from our porteo correspondents who know, live and suffer them.

First, we never said that Summorum had not been applied anywhere in Argentina. Cardinal Bergoglio was not the only Bishop of the whole of Argentina, but the Archbishop of Buenos Aires. Naturally, his powers were limited to the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires, which is territorially very small, limited to the area of the Federal Capital itself*** - and, even then, not in the churches of the Military Ordinariate, as in all countries. So what happened there that prompted us to say that the application of Summorum in that archdiocese was "non-existent" and Marcelo Gonzlez to speak that, "a sworn enemy of the Traditional Mass, he has only allowed imitations of it in the hands of declared enemies of the ancient liturgy"?

Ah, say the Google-searchers whose only experience of Argentina was watching Evita in one of their Broadway trips, he "allowed" a Summorum mass immediately after it went into effect: there it is, in this Clarn report - sent by many readers and posted by many... Well, under Summorum, a bishop does not "allow" or "implement" anything - that was the Ecclesia Dei regimen. Naturally, under Ecclesia Dei, nothing was "allowed" in Buenos Aires, even though Argentina has the largest traditional Catholic community in South America. Anyway, under Summorum, a place was designated by the Archdiocese in the church of San Miguel Arcngel.

Quite a relief, right? As a matter of fact, that was just the beginning of the problems. The Mass was celebrated only on the Fourth Sunday of each month in the crypt of the church of San Miguel Arcngel. And more, as reported in 2010 by Pgina Catlica, a most trusted blog on Argentine Catholic affairs that has been in our blogroll since its beginning:

[C]ontrary to what common sense dictates and Ecclesia Dei clarified, Father Dotro [the "chaplain" for the Traditional Mass specifically chosen by Abp. Bergoglio] follows the calendar of the Ordinary Form, reading, therefore, the lessons of this form. But, as he does not limit himself to this innovation, he does not read them, but has them read by the faithful. The modified Mass is therefore left without the Epistle, Gradual, or Gospel.

As informed by the media [as informed above by the Clarin article], on September 16, 2007, the first day in which it was celebrated by who would soon be the Chaplain of the traditionalists, some one hundred people filled the Crypt of San Miguel. [...] From the one hundred people who were present in the Mass on the first day, not more than two or three are left... Once a month! Because liturgical "modernism" is not in the interest of the faithful who adhere to tradition. For that, it is enough, and more [than enough], the number of parishes of Buenos Aires that, under the watch of the Cardinal-Primate, do as they please in the Ordinary Form. Father Dotro and his superior, who cannot ignore what is going on, in this way mock traditionalists about whom they should care.

The poor blogger, so he would not be accused of falsifying anything, even recorded the new (1970) lectionary lessons read out in the once-a-month mass... [A full translation of the post should be posted by us soon.]

And so what was the great and generous application of Summorum Pontificum in the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires? One Novus Ordo-TLM hybrid once a month. And, as it happens to any badly celebrated Latin Mass, the number of attending faithful fast dwindled from one hundred to a handful. And, naturally, it was discontinued. So, as correctly mentioned in WikiMissa, there is currently not a single actual Traditional Mass strictly according to the 1962 Missal celebrated by diocesan priests of the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires. And every priest who tried to truly implement Summorum in his parish - that is, out of their own initiative, without "authorization" from the Bishop - was ordered to stop. It is what happened to a poor priest who tried to do it in the chapel of the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, in October 2007, and was personally ordered by the Archbishop to stop in November 2007. [The complete post of this shameful event, also mentioned by Pgina Catlica, in a 2011 post, will also be translated and posted shortly.]

That is how the then-Archbishop applied Summorum in his diocese. Now, will that have any influence in his current Supreme position? We shall see. We certainly do have a very liturgical new pope, with determined liturgical views, implemented from his very first minutes as pope. Whether these views will be pleasing to some who are now criticizing us is an altogether different matter. On the other hand, those who are used to bending will certainly have no problem with the changes.

*** This is also important: the diocesan Traditional Masses mentioned by dear Fr. Finigan as occurring in Argentina do not include any in the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires precisely because there are not any there, which is limited to the Federal Capital (Autonomous City of Buenos Aires, which, despite the name, is outside Buenos Aires Province, in a situation comparable to that of the District of Columbia and Maryland). The three mentioned by him are in Buenos Aires Province: Villa Celina (La Matanza Partido, Diocese of San Justo), Rawson (Chacabuco Partido, Diocese of Mercedes-Lujn), and La Plata (Capital of the Province of Buenos Aires, Archdiocese of La Plata). The Archbishop's territory became a Summorum-free zone.
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Oct 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: But the SSPX is not an authority.

Although Benedict removed the excommunication of the 4 illicitly ordained Bishops, they remain separated from the Church by their own actions. Because of Benedict's action, the SSPX is not deemed to be in formal or de juro schism. They are, however, in de facto schism. As a result any commentary they may have remains highly suspect.

Vatican II and the new Catechism consistently teach what the Church has taught for 2000 years. No council is considered infallible unless and until its documents and teachings are approved by the Pope. All Vatican II documents and its teachings have been so approved.

Vatican II did not create any new teachings. The ground it covers are the consistent teachings and Traditions of the Church. Anyone who says otherwise either has not read them or they do not understand them; probably both.
They are not in de facto Scism.That's your opinion.
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Oct 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: They are not in de facto Scism.That's your opinion.
Duh!

They are not in union with Rome. The ministers cannot licitly celebrate a Mass or hear confessions or any other sacraments except in the case of imminent death.

That is fact! And as a fact it indicates that a state of de facto scism exists although not classified as such by Rome which still holds out a forelorne hope of reconciliation.

As to your previous post about the TLM, Several Argentinian CM members here emphatically stated that it was untrue and that the TLM is easily available throughout the Archdiocese.
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Oct 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: Duh!

They are not in union with Rome. The ministers cannot licitly celebrate a Mass or hear confessions or any other sacraments except in the case of imminent death.

That is fact! And as a fact it indicates that a state of de facto scism exists although not classified as such by Rome which still holds out a forelorne hope of reconciliation.

As to your previous post about the TLM, Several Argentinian CM members here emphatically stated that it was untrue and that the TLM is easily available throughout the Archdiocese.
I posted a Video which a Canon Lawyer explains the Scaraments and the laws surrounding their celebration.The video was removed,so I will send it to you personally.The said Canon Lawyer who is now deceased,worked for Cardinal Stickler years ago.Since I cannot repost the video,suffice it to say you are wrong.I will send you the evidence.The moderator will not allow public display of the video.I do not want to get get kicked off CM.
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Oct 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: Yes I believe that you are correct Ed.
Question 14
What are we to think of the New Catechism?

This question illustrates the fundamental differences between the SSPX and the Conciliar traditionalists or conservatives. These latter are often seen defending both the traditional Latin Mass and the new Catechism but not openly attacking either the Novus Ordo Missae or Vatican II.

The SSPX on the other hand defends the traditional catechisms and therefore the traditional Latin Mass, and so attacks the Novus Ordo Missae, Vatican II and the new Catechism, all of which more or less undermine our unchangeable Catholic faith.

Conservatives defend the Catechism of the Catholic Church for its re-affirmation of teachings silenced or denied by out rightly modernist catechisms; the Society rejects it though because it is an attempt to formalize and propagate the teachings of Vatican II. Pope John Paul II agrees with this:

The Catechism was also indispensable (i.e., as well as the 1983 Code of Canon Law), in order that all the richness of the teaching of the Church following the Second Vatican Council could be preserved in a new synthesis and be given a new direction. (Pope John Paul II, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, London, Jonathen Cape, 1994, p. 164)

One need but consider the 806 citations from Vatican II, a number which amounts on average to one citation every three-and-a-half paragraphs throughout the 2,865 paragraphs of the Catechism.

In particular, the novelties of Vatican II appear in the following paragraphs:

an infatuation with the dignity of man (225; 369; 1700; 1929...),

such that we may hope for the salvation of all the baptized (1682ff),

even non-Catholics (818),

or those who commit suicide (2283),

and of all the unbaptised, whether adults (847),

or infants (1261);

which is the basis of all rights (1738; 1930; 1935) including that of religious liberty (2106ff),

and the motive of all morality (1706; 1881; 2354; 2402; 2407, etc.),

a commitment to ecumenism (820f; 1399; 1401) because all religions are instruments of salvation (819; 838-843; 2104),

collegiality (879-885),

over-emphasis on the priesthood of the faithful (873; 1547; 1140ff, etc.).

Now, just as he who denies but one article of Faith loses the Faith [principle 7], so a teacher who errs on one point alone proves himself fallible, and, renders all he teaches questionable.

Just as the Second Vatican Council is not an authority to quote even where it propounds Catholic teaching (it does not do so infallibly and clearly), so this Catechism is not an authority of Catholic belief because of the modern deviations which it encompasses.

Those who defend this Catechism are supporting the innovations of Vatican II.

http://archives.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q14_new_catechism.htm
Below is the complete apostolic letter, signed by John Paul II, at the beginning of the text of the new publication of the Catechism.

For those Catholics who do not believe that the new publication (of the Catechism) is valid, then I suppose that they either...
#1) believe that Pope John Paul II was in error in his confirmation of the validity of the Catechism, or
#2) believe that Pope John Paul II lied when he confirmed that validity of the Catechism, or
#3) believe that Pope John Paul II was NOT a valid pope of the Catholic Church, or
#4) maybe they have just started their own church that diverges from the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Did I miss any other options? What other option could there be?


Excerpts from the full letter...

....The Church now has at her disposal this new, authoritative exposition of the one and perennial apostolic faith, and it will serve as a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion and as a sure norm for teaching the faith, as well as a sure and authentic reference text for preparing local catechisms (cf. Apostolic Constitution Fidei Depositum, no. 4).

Catechesis will find in this genuine, systematic presentation of the faith and of Catholic doctrine a totally reliable way to present, with renewed fervor, each and every part of the Christian message to the people of our time. This text will provide every catechist with sound help for communicating the one, perennial deposit of faith within the local Church, ....



-----------------------------------
www.usccb.org


APOSTOLIC LETTER LAETAMUR MAGNOPERE

IN WHICH THE LATIN TYPICAL EDITION OF THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS APPROVED AND PROMULGATED

JOHN PAUL, BISHOP SERVANT OF THE SERVANTS OF GOD FOR EVERLASTING MEMORY

To my Venerable Brother Cardinals, Patriarchs, Archbishops, Bishops, Priests, Deacons and to other members of the People of God.

It is a Cause for Great Joy that the Latin Typical Edition of the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH is Being Published. It is approved and promulgated by me in this Apostolic Letter and thus becomes the definitive text of the aforementioned Catechism. This is occurring about five years after the Apostolic Constitution Fidei Depositum of October 11, 1992, which, on the 30th anniversary of the opening of the Second Vatican Council, accompanied the publication of the first, Frenchlanguage text of the Catechism.

We have all been able to note with pleasure the broad positive reception and wide dissemination of the Catechism in these years, especially in the particular Churches, which have had it translated into their respective languages, thus making it as accessible as possible to the various linguistic communities of the world. This fact confirms how fitting was the request submitted to me in 1985 by the Extraordinary Assembly of the Synod of Bishops that a catechism or compendium of all Catholic doctrine regarding faith and morals be composed.

Drawn up by the special Commission of Cardinals and Bishops established in 1986, theCatechism was approved and promulgated by me in the aforementioned Apostolic Constitution, which today retains all its validity and timeliness, and finds its definitive achievement in this Latin typical edition.

This edition was prepared by an Interdicasterial Commission which I appointed for this purpose in 1993. Presided over by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, this Commission worked diligently to fulfill the mandate it received. It devoted particular attention to a study of the many suggested changes to the contents of the text, which in these years had come from around the world and from various parts of the ecclesial community.

In this regard one can certainly understand that such a remarkable number of suggested improvements shows the extraordinary interest that the Catechism has raised throughout the world, even among nonChristians, and confirms its purpose of being presented as a full, complete exposition of Catholic doctrine, enabling everyone to know what the Church professes, celebrates, lives, and prays in her daily life. At the same time it draws attention to the eager desire of all to make their contribution so that the Christian faith, whose essential and necessary elements are summarized in the Catechism, can be presented to the people of our day in the most suitable way possible. Furthermore, this collaboration of the various members of the Church will once again achieve what I wrote in the Apostolic Constitution Fidei Depositum: The harmony of so many voices truly expresses what could be called the symphony of the faith (no. 2).

For these reasons too, the Commission seriously considered the suggestions offered, carefully examined them at various levels and submitted its conclusions for my approval. These conclusions, insofar as they allow for a better expression of the Catechisms contents regarding the deposit of the Catholic faith, or enable certain truths of this faith to be formulated in a way more suited to the requirements of contemporary catechetical instruction, have been approved by me and thus have been incorporated into this Latin typical edition. Therefore it faithfully repeats the doctrinal content which I officially presented to the Church and to the world in December 1992.

With todays promulgation of the Latin typical edition, therefore, the task of composing theCatechism, begun in 1986, is brought to a close and the desire of the aforementioned Extraordinary Synod of Bishops is happily fulfilled. The Church now has at her disposal this new, authoritative exposition of the one and perennial apostolic faith, and it will serve as a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion and as a sure norm for teaching the faith, as well as a sure and authentic reference text for preparing local catechisms (cf. Apostolic Constitution Fidei Depositum, no. 4).

Catechesis will find in this genuine, systematic presentation of the faith and of Catholic doctrine a totally reliable way to present, with renewed fervor, each and every part of the Christian message to the people of our time. This text will provide every catechist with sound help for communicating the one, perennial deposit of faith within the local Church, while seeking, with the help of the Holy Spirit, to link the wondrous unity of the Christian mystery with the varied needs and conditions of those to whom this message is addressed. All catechetical activity will be able to experience a new, widespread impetus among the People of God, if it can properly use and appreciate this postconciliarCatechism.

All this seems even more important today with the approach of the third millennium. For an extraordinary commitment to evangelization is urgently needed so that everyone can know and receive the Gospel message and thus grow to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Eph 4:13).

I therefore strongly urge my Venerable Brothers in the Episcopate, for whom the Catechism is primarily intended, to take the excellent opportunity afforded by the promulgation of this Latin edition to intensify their efforts to disseminate the text more widely and to ensure that it is well received as an outstanding gift for the communities entrusted to them, which will thus be able to rediscover the inexhaustible riches of the faith.

Through the harmonious and complementary efforts of all the ranks of the People of God, may this Catechism be known and shared by everyone, so that the unity in faith whose supreme model and origin is found in the Unity of the Trinity may be strengthened and extended to the ends of the earth.

To Mary, Mother of Christ, whose Assumption body and soul into heaven we celebrate today, I entrust these wishes so that they may be brought to fulfillment for the spiritual good of all humanity.

From Castel Gandolfo, August 15, 1997, the nineteenth year of the Pontificate.

>> signed John Paul II <<

---------------------------------------------

Ed

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