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Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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"Who am I to judge gay people?" was interpreted by the media as "the Pope condones homosexuality". The Vatican should be savvy enough to know that message would be spread by the world's media . We can all say "the Pope did not mean that" or "the Pope wants us to be more compassionate to sinners" etc but he has made various comments that should not have been so blatantly open to misrepresentation.
Society today is normalizing what Catholics have always considered to be sins- that is a fact. I woke up to a short video by the new US Ambassador where he introduced his "husband" . That is not a normal or acceptable relationship according to Church teaching. Society thinks that is OK and increasingly so, so the Church needs to be that independent counter cultural voice that supports the Will of God. Society itself is doing such a great job at normalizing and glamorizing sin so why should there be a need for the Church join the bandwagon? It has nothing to do with being "traditional" or whatever title is assigned to Catholic but all about being true to the timeless teachings of the Church.
"And for the most part, the "you shouldn't judge" nonsense is not helpful. Thou shalt not judge refers to taking the seat of judgement of God, that actual passage in scripture where Christ was talking about planks, specs and eyes wasn't about judgement it was about being a hypocrite. We are called to correct with charity and truth. "
There are so many contradictions in play. For example, if you had a child who "came out" as a homosexual would you:
1) encourage them to be celibate, or
2) support their choice to live in an illicit "relationship" (ie be "non-judgmental")?
I have good friends who have children who cohabitate and they made the point that they "did not like it but did not want to lose their children" and subsequently accepted fornication occurring under their own roof. I asked them whether they had ever considered "losing their children to Hell" by being so accepting of it?
You certainly make no friends in our world by being "judgmental" (ie promoting the Truth) as it often takes courage as you get doors slammed in your face more often than not (it is much easier to say nothing) so the notion that people stand up for ideals for kicks as it is often stated is ludicrous in my opinion.
It's really not ludicrous for non-practicing Catholics or protesters. It is rather predictably expected. However, IT IS NOT CATHOLIC! Discernment is MANDATORY! Those that insist on using the word "judgment" against others as in the final sense are MOST DISINGENOUS, and usually INTENTIONALLY so. They REFUSE the truth. Good riddance. Dust off our sandals and move on.
True to protester form, persons who pick and choose their passages from the bible, to suit their own agenda and discard, discount and/or ignore what they have been informed about time and again are doing it INTENTIONALLY. We need to just stop engaging those that keep propagating dung. No one can stop them from doing it (it's their free will) but we should not stick around and take in any of that.
I have also come to realize that the media and the protesters to constant Catholic teaching will come out with intentional spin to their desired outcomes no matter what is said. So, to Pope Francis, I say, just keep on being the leader in the way the Holy Spirit moves you.
Some is also caused by some Trads that have predetermined their minds against him already and they present matters out of context also to cause controversy.
Francis did not say we should not oppose gay acts and contraception and abortion. He is saying we should talk less and do more, especially priests whose job it is to administer to those who commit gay acts or use contraception and abort.
We will not win over those who practice gay sex, contracept or abort by seeming to do nothing but talk about those things. We need to convert them, to bring them to Christ and the message of the Gospel and then our talking about those subjects will have an impact.
Papa Francis is correct: being judgemental of sinners makes them run faster towards more sin. Instead, Catholics need to be factual (for example explaining calmly the horrific details of exactly what happens during an abortion; however, at the same time project real empathy and the overwhelming wish to help/support the person to choose God's way instead.
My opinion is that he didn't downgrade the Church's position on the points mentioned, he simply said that these are not the ONLY issues, and shouldn't take all of the time, efforts and prayers of the faithful.
I agree that these are issues that are in the process of destroying this once-great country, but there are parts of the world....say Ghana... where the seminaries are overcrowded, and vocations go begging for a want of funding.
Education of our youth, as it's done at Christendom College, among a few others, is certainly worthy of time and effort.
I've been a pro-life activist since it became legal in NY state, a couple of years, if memory serves, before Roe v. Wade.
The homosexual lobby is taking over our country, but it might not be if we truly did condemn the sin but love the sinner. I think sometimes my rhetoric, for example, could make folks believe that I hated Obama, and the truth is, I don't pray for him, or practicing homosexuals, or abortionists enough.
As Sylvia Pogiolli ?, and another commentator were saying on NPR, "I'm sure there'll be controversy.".....well, there will be because this radio medium, which is funded by our tax dollars, will make SURE there's controversy.
I think Pope Francis is a humble man, guided by the Holy Spirit, who speaks the truth without a press agent/spokesperson checking every word to make sure the "spin" is correct. Being Pope in this day and age must be the toughest job in the world. May God bless him and all of us.
What do you think about this? Yes, I agree that the Pope or any church leader shouldn't only talk about moral issues but to atleast imply these issues aren't that important, is somewhat troubling for me. It is nice to talk about loving one another and helping the poor, but who is really going to disagree with that? Abortion and gay marriage have absolutely destroyed western culture and for the Pope to seemingly downgrade their importance is not only troubling but a bit of a head scratcher.
Check out the full text of the interview as reported in "American - The National Catholic Review" magazine.
Jack (752986) originally posted this in the "Culture and Current Events" forum, under the topic "Pope Francis Interview - America mag.
You may want to check out the posts on that other forum too.
People will do themselves a dis-service it they don't read his whole interview as you posted from american magazine. There were A LOT of things covered in the interview with quite a lot of depth and nuance. It is something that I would have to read a few times to really get a thorough understanding of it. I think that one of the big things that people will take away from reading the interview, is that it is really helpful and necessary to read his statements in the full context of the interview. As is predictable, the secular media has a way of pulling out certain comments, losing the full context of the comments.
As much as this was covered in the secular media as something rather groundbreaking in the Catholic church.... I didn't read a single instance of anything that was bending Catholic doctrine or contrary to the current teaching of the Catholic Church and Catechism. My impression is that Pope Francis is trying to change the tone and style of dealing with the real world issues of the Church and of those inside and outside the Church... and trying to do a more effective job of reaching out to all of those in need. My impression is that he is in no way condoning those things which are certainly sinful, but recognizing that we can't heal someone of their problems unless they first feel welcomed at the Catholic Church.
There do appear to be a number of things that I'm sure will be taken out of context by the media.... which is why I suggest reading the interview.
I did a fast read of the interview and I sure that I missed a number of things. I will likely read it again very soon, as it contained a lot to absorb.
Just my thoughts.
Do they need to speak out with love and compassion? Yes. But unfortunately if you say something people don't want to hear, all the love and compassion you use is lost. You are labeled judgmental, hateful, whatever..... Will we find the right balance by teaching more "tolerance"? Or will we continue to water down the faith cause we don't want to talk about these uncomfortable issues?
I guess we pray for our church, pope and priests all the more and we pray for the understanding to see how this will be a good thing for the church- on top of the prayers that this will indeed be a good thing for the church.