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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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Sep 25th 2013 new
Maybe it has been said before (I didn't read all of the replies in this thread), but the pope's statement about abortion/contraception, etc. addresses a big problem that we now face. In modern times it has become increasingly more difficult to discuss matters of moral importance with those with whom we disagree. We fall back on morality as if it is a set of rules that are passed down from the pope. We have lost the ability to argue for basic morality from philosophical principles. That is not to say that there are not moral principles that must come from God alone through Revelation and are passed down to us through the Church. However, we have also been given the gift of natural reason by God. Through natural reason we can discover what is man's nature and examine his natural end (which end is elevated and perfected through grace). From the ability to communicate comes man's natural desire for social interaction. Civilization is built upon the most basic civil structure, the family. The family is the foundation of civilized life and is designed to help man reach the perfection of his end (the beatific vision through grace). Most people are called to this vocation. The perfection of the family requires monogamy and marriage. In the context of marriage, the goals are happiness and procreation. The social issues which the pope spoke about are inconsistent with the basic structures of the family and the principles which should guide a moral life. In the end, we have lost sight of the fact that the Christian life is not a set of negative rules about what you should not do. It is a guide for us, based both on our nature as rational beings and as being made in the image of God, that helps guide us to the perfection of our natures, our souls, in the hopes of living eternally with God. When we just spout off the rules against abortion, homosexuality, and contraception, we are doing a disservice to the great tradition of the Church that has come before us. These three sins can be argued against from an understanding of the Natural Law, just as we can argue against murder, theft, etc. These three issues are important today, don't get me wrong. However, we are losing the fight because we've given up the bigger picture, which is the defense of the traditional family as the guiding structure for how we should live.

LOCKED
Sep 27th 2013 new
Brandon,
you present a well reasoned response to the social ills in today's culture. As you rightly state it is abortion, homosexuality, and contraception that contribute most to the break down of the family system. I would add divorce to that list as well.

I too believe that we need to return to teaching Natural Law in our educational systems. The recognition and acknowledgement of the existence of Natural Law , that law that is written on every man's heart, would go a long way toward protecting the inherent rights and dignity of all human beings from conception until natural death.

The family structure of one man and one woman and any children born into that family unit is a part of the natural order, ordained by our Creator, who is the author of all life. It was in Genesis where God Himself instituted the sacrament of Holy Matrimony.

When this basic family structure is recognized and promoted as that which is most conducive to raising happy, well adjusted, morally and financially responsible adults, all of society benefits. The result is law abiding citizens, health systems that focus on the promotion of wellness versus one that must constantly battle disease that results from illicit sexual lifestyles, i. e. Sexually transmitted diseases, which only one short generation ago were non-existent. The emotional and mental health of citizens in modern society which continually denies the existence of the Natual Law has suffered as a result of this lack of a moral compass.

However, when one lives with the knowledge that moral principals do not depend upon a majority vote and wrong is wrong even if everyone is wrong and right is right even if no one is right then one is truly free in the truest sense of the word.

In a moral society, one guided by moral principals, these principles will be passed down through one generation to another, and in conclusion, it is the family structure that contributes most to the overall good of the entire community. And thus must be protected by our civil laws at a minimum.

I agree that we need a "defense of the traditional family" as we engage in the current culture wars of modernity.

LOCKED
Sep 28th 2013 new
Here is my two cents:

Let's imagine a world leader put up a flag with the swastika on it and said, "I love Jews. I love Catholics. I love the disabled." Would you believe his words? Or, the symbol?

*Pope Francis has the symbols of the Holy Family - Father, Mother, and Child -- on his Papal Sheild.
*He submitted his papacy to the protection of Mary under the icon, Salus Populi Romani, St. Luke's Mother and Child, in the Basilica of St. Mary Major.
*His Holy Thursday gesture was washing the feet of children.
*Like a "Southern" gentleman father, his every gesture puts mothers, children, and babies first. Many of his daily homilies, especially ones on Mary's maternal care, are veritable masterpieces.

One could go on and on. If a policeman in the middle of the road was screaming 'left, left, left', but pointing right, which way would you turn?

Exactly.

Pope Francis' fatherly shield, sword, and service is loud and clear, especially to simple souls:

Pro-Family. Pro-Life. Pro-Motherhood. Pro-Fatherhood. Pro-Child.

When one is carrying a big stick they need not scold. An Alpha Dog thing? Most folks in the world are simple and illiterate. Most are too busy surviving. Most do not speak Italian or English. They have just enough time to get simple symbolism. We Catholics are called to be experts in interpreting sign language, especially liturgical and sacramental. Some research indicates that only 7% of communication is actual words. 55% is visual (body language, eye contact) and 38% is vocal (pitch, speed, volume, tone of voice). (Body Language. Bloomberg Businesswee Feb 14, 2007).

Why do we Catholics spend 99% of our time talking about 7% of communication, especially in our digital driven age that favors images? Moreover, why we Catholic who have the Good News and know the end of His Story, allow the daily negative news cycle hijack our topics and the terms of conversation?

Yes. I get that the MSM would like to hijack his papacy like they did, in many respects, Vatican II. Look how the Church responded: Popes PVI, JPII, and B16. Until six months ago, most of those left the Church had their ears plugged. Both sides were shooting across the bow. Pope Francis has opened up a different family dialogue around a world-wide kitchen table. While centered on Catholic orthodoxy, he is approaching these issues not from stale apologetics, but from appealing to common ground and the values the 'left' holds dear -- peace, mercy, science, justice, personal conscience, nature and poverty. One can make the case for all of the non-negotiables from these pivot points.Many are listening again for the first time. Some are even coming home.





LOCKED
Sep 28th 2013 new
I do pray for Francis and the intentions of the Pope, though to be honest there are time I've been disturbed by his actions and things he said.

That said, his "new balance" to make an overture for the Gospel strikes me as a return to the project of Pope Paul VI, which ended badly for him and the Church. The banal liturgies and lack of catechisis lead to the apostasy we see in the West today, as well as the decline of many formerly solid religious orders, and we've never yet recovered from the bombshells of the 70's.

I fear a moral silencing, which is how the press and liberal Catholics take it, will be a bigger disaster. There is a worldwide, and I fear growing, movement that seeks to not merely relegate the Church into private piety, but to stamp it out altogether.

One incident, listed in the Blaze, is the subject of a thread in Current Events:

www.theblaze.com

You can add that to incidents in Santiago, Chile, Italy, and recently one in Pope Francis' Metropolitan See of Buenos Aries. Some students of a public school entered a church, burnt the priest's chair, burnt one side altar and desecrated the main one, and painted blasphemous slogans throughout the church, including the one in the blog photo that was in front of the altar that reads, "the only church that enlightens is one that BURNS!"

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com





LOCKED
Sep 28th 2013 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: I do pray for Francis and the intentions of the Pope, though to be honest there are time I've been disturbed by his actions and things he said.

That said, his "new balance" to make an overture for the Gospel strikes me as a return to the project of Pope Paul VI, which ended badly for him and the Church. The banal liturgies and lack of catechisis lead to the apostasy we see in the West today, as well as the decline of many formerly solid religious orders, and we've never yet recovered from the bombshells of the 70's.

I fear a moral silencing, which is how the press and liberal Catholics take it, will be a bigger disaster. There is a worldwide, and I fear growing, movement that seeks to not merely relegate the Church into private piety, but to stamp it out altogether.

One incident, listed in the Blaze, is the subject of a thread in Current Events:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/09/28/man-to-college-pro-life-group-i-want-a-world-where-all-your-churches-burn/

You can add that to incidents in Santiago, Chile, Italy, and recently one in Pope Francis' Metropolitan See of Buenos Aries. Some students of a public school entered a church, burnt the priest's chair, burnt one side altar and desecrated the main one, and painted blasphemous slogans throughout the church, including the one in the blog photo that was in front of the altar that reads, "the only church that enlightens is one that BURNS!"

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/09/so-hows-that-dialogue-with-world.html





Steven,


These sorts of things/actions of the secular world retaliating against the Catholic Church have happened for the past 2000 years and they will certainly continue until the end of time. There is certainly no reason to believe that it would ever stop. Jesus said as much.

I did go to the rotate-caeli link that was posted. It appears to me the the author/editor of the article chose the title "So, how's that "dialogue with the world" working out for you?" Perhaps I am misunderstanding or missing something, but it appears that the author is directing that question toward Pope Francis. If so, I believe that the headline is directed toward Pope Francis in a rather disrespectful manner.... and I don't like it. It seems to me to be inappropriate and beneath a "Catholic" website to make such a snarky (for lack of a better word) comment directed toward our pope. I doubt if the author/editor would say that directly to Pope Francis's face.

Every time I am directed toward that rotate-caeli website, I come away with less respect for those who publish it. I don't think that that web site will ever entice a single non-Catholic to convert to the Catholic Church. Their general tone and comments seem (to me) to be all anti-Vantican-II, negative of most popes since Vatican-II and ALWAYS complaining, complaining, complaining. I hope that rorate-caeli either changes its' tone or disappears soon from the internet. I think that it presents a negative image of what being Catholic is all about. They make some good points sometimes, but that is always far-outweighed by the negativity and nastiness (usually from comments) on the site.

Just my thoughts.

Ed
LOCKED
Sep 29th 2013 new
(quote) ED-20630 said: Steven,

These sorts of things/actions of the secular world retaliating against the Catholic Church have happened for the past 2000 years and they will certainly continue until the end of time. There is certainly no reason to believe that it would ever stop. Jesus said as much.

I did go to the rotate-caeli link that was posted. It appears to me the the author/editor of the article chose the title "So, how's that "dialogue with the world" working out for you?" Perhaps I am misunderstanding or missing something, but it appears that the author is directing that question toward Pope Francis. If so, I believe that the headline is directed toward Pope Francis in a rather disrespectful manner.... and I don't like it. It seems to me to be inappropriate and beneath a "Catholic" website to make such a snarky (for lack of a better word) comment directed toward our pope. I doubt if the author/editor would say that directly to Pope Francis's face.

Every time I am directed toward that rotate-caeli website, I come away with less respect for those who publish it. I don't think that that web site will ever entice a single non-Catholic to convert to the Catholic Church. Their general tone and comments seem (to me) to be all anti-Vantican-II, negative of most popes since Vatican-II and ALWAYS complaining, complaining, complaining. I hope that rorate-caeli either changes its' tone or disappears soon from the internet. I think that it presents a negative image of what being Catholic is all about. They make some good points sometimes, but that is always far-outweighed by the negativity and nastiness (usually from comments) on the site.

Just my thoughts.

Ed
Well, I can't help you with the title, but the translation of what was on the Church floor is correct.

Despite the title the story speaks for itself; and being that it is in a (nominally) catholic country it tells you how far things have gone downhill in that part of the world.

It is something to pray about and be strengthened by grace for.
LOCKED
Sep 29th 2013 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: Well, I can't help you with the title, but the translation of what was on the Church floor is correct.

Despite the title the story speaks for itself; and being that it is in a (nominally) catholic country it tells you how far things have gone downhill in that part of the world.

It is something to pray about and be strengthened by grace for.
My only point is that they (the author, editor and owners of the site) (once again) ruined a news-worthy story by introducing a snarky sort of comment (in the headline) and managed to be rather disrespectful to the Holy Father in the process. I think that it is quite unbecoming of them, especially of a site that apparently wants to be portrayed as a rather reverent Catholic forum. Those sorts comments show it to be anything but reverent... The words petty and spiteful come to mind. I think they give Catholics a bad name by their behavior.

Ed
LOCKED
Oct 1st 2013 new
(quote) ED-20630 said: Steven,

These sorts of things/actions of the secular world retaliating against the Catholic Church have happened for the past 2000 years and they will certainly continue until the end of time. There is certainly no reason to believe that it would ever stop. Jesus said as much.

I did go to the rotate-caeli link that was posted. It appears to me the the author/editor of the article chose the title "So, how's that "dialogue with the world" working out for you?" Perhaps I am misunderstanding or missing something, but it appears that the author is directing that question toward Pope Francis. If so, I believe that the headline is directed toward Pope Francis in a rather disrespectful manner.... and I don't like it. It seems to me to be inappropriate and beneath a "Catholic" website to make such a snarky (for lack of a better word) comment directed toward our pope. I doubt if the author/editor would say that directly to Pope Francis's face.

Every time I am directed toward that rotate-caeli website, I come away with less respect for those who publish it. I don't think that that web site will ever entice a single non-Catholic to convert to the Catholic Church. Their general tone and comments seem (to me) to be all anti-Vantican-II, negative of most popes since Vatican-II and ALWAYS complaining, complaining, complaining. I hope that rorate-caeli either changes its' tone or disappears soon from the internet. I think that it presents a negative image of what being Catholic is all about. They make some good points sometimes, but that is always far-outweighed by the negativity and nastiness (usually from comments) on the site.

Just my thoughts.

Ed
ED..
Pope Francis is a nightmare for the 'holier than thou' people. These people are so like the pharisees.

LOCKED
Oct 1st 2013 new
(quote) Tom-112790 said: ED..
Pope Francis is a nightmare for the 'holier than thou' people. These people are so like the pharisees.

He's also a nightmare for the "holier than the pope" people (like around some of these rooms here)! laughing
LOCKED
Oct 1st 2013 new
(quote) Kathy-99973 said: He's also a nightmare for the "holier than the pope" people (like around some of these rooms here)!
Well, all I can say to the cries of "Pharisee," to my misgivings is here is another "pharisee" heard from. Here is John Vennari's, of the Catholic Family Networks, comments.

www.speroforum.com


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