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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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Oct 1st 2013 new
(quote) Paula-982894 said: Brandon,
you present a well reasoned response to the social ills in today's culture. As you rightly state it is abortion, homosexuality, and contraception that contribute most to the break down of the family system. I would add divorce to that list as well.

I too believe that we need to return to teaching Natural Law in our educational systems. The recognition and acknowledgement of the existence of Natural Law , that law that is written on every man's heart, would go a long way toward protecting the inherent rights and dignity of all human beings from conception until natural death.

The family structure of one man and one woman and any children born into that family unit is a part of the natural order, ordained by our Creator, who is the author of all life. It was in Genesis where God Himself instituted the sacrament of Holy Matrimony.

When this basic family structure is recognized and promoted as that which is most conducive to raising happy, well adjusted, morally and financially responsible adults, all of society benefits. The result is law abiding citizens, health systems that focus on the promotion of wellness versus one that must constantly battle disease that results from illicit sexual lifestyles, i. e. Sexually transmitted diseases, which only one short generation ago were non-existent. The emotional and mental health of citizens in modern society which continually denies the existence of the Natual Law has suffered as a result of this lack of a moral compass.

However, when one lives with the knowledge that moral principals do not depend upon a majority vote and wrong is wrong even if everyone is wrong and right is right even if no one is right then one is truly free in the truest sense of the word.

In a moral society, one guided by moral principals, these principles will be passed down through one generation to another, and in conclusion, it is the family structure that contributes most to the overall good of the entire community. And thus must be protected by our civil laws at a minimum.

I agree that we need a "defense of the traditional family" as we engage in the current culture wars of modernity.

Paula, AMEN, AMEN!!
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Oct 4th 2013 new
(quote) ED-20630 said: Steven,

These sorts of things/actions of the secular world retaliating against the Catholic Church have happened for the past 2000 years and they will certainly continue until the end of time. There is certainly no reason to believe that it would ever stop. Jesus said as much.

I did go to the rotate-caeli link that was posted. It appears to me the the author/editor of the article chose the title "So, how's that "dialogue with the world" working out for you?" Perhaps I am misunderstanding or missing something, but it appears that the author is directing that question toward Pope Francis. If so, I believe that the headline is directed toward Pope Francis in a rather disrespectful manner.... and I don't like it. It seems to me to be inappropriate and beneath a "Catholic" website to make such a snarky (for lack of a better word) comment directed toward our pope. I doubt if the author/editor would say that directly to Pope Francis's face.

Every time I am directed toward that rotate-caeli website, I come away with less respect for those who publish it. I don't think that that web site will ever entice a single non-Catholic to convert to the Catholic Church. Their general tone and comments seem (to me) to be all anti-Vantican-II, negative of most popes since Vatican-II and ALWAYS complaining, complaining, complaining. I hope that rorate-caeli either changes its' tone or disappears soon from the internet. I think that it presents a negative image of what being Catholic is all about. They make some good points sometimes, but that is always far-outweighed by the negativity and nastiness (usually from comments) on the site.

Just my thoughts.

Ed
Like I said, the story is what is important, not the headline.

That was the story that listed the facts about this, and that blog has detailed many such events throughout Latin America that would otherwise never be heard. It's important to hear so as to know the signs of the of times as Our Lord commanded.
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Oct 4th 2013 new
(quote) ED-20630 said: Steven,

These sorts of things/actions of the secular world retaliating against the Catholic Church have happened for the past 2000 years and they will certainly continue until the end of time. There is certainly no reason to believe that it would ever stop. Jesus said as much.

I did go to the rotate-caeli link that was posted. It appears to me the the author/editor of the article chose the title "So, how's that "dialogue with the world" working out for you?" Perhaps I am misunderstanding or missing something, but it appears that the author is directing that question toward Pope Francis. If so, I believe that the headline is directed toward Pope Francis in a rather disrespectful manner.... and I don't like it. It seems to me to be inappropriate and beneath a "Catholic" website to make such a snarky (for lack of a better word) comment directed toward our pope. I doubt if the author/editor would say that directly to Pope Francis's face.

Every time I am directed toward that rotate-caeli website, I come away with less respect for those who publish it. I don't think that that web site will ever entice a single non-Catholic to convert to the Catholic Church. Their general tone and comments seem (to me) to be all anti-Vantican-II, negative of most popes since Vatican-II and ALWAYS complaining, complaining, complaining. I hope that rorate-caeli either changes its' tone or disappears soon from the internet. I think that it presents a negative image of what being Catholic is all about. They make some good points sometimes, but that is always far-outweighed by the negativity and nastiness (usually from comments) on the site.

Just my thoughts.

Ed
Like I said, the story is what is important, not the headline.

That was the story that listed the facts about this, and that blog has detailed many such events throughout Latin America that would otherwise never be heard. It's important to hear so as to know the signs of the of times as Our Lord commanded.
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Oct 5th 2013 new
I agree Patrick, I was also surprised to read the statement from our pope. I had hoped it would be clarified by Rome. I once heard a speaker teach that abortion, contraception and homosexuality will not stop until people change. This change comes best through the family. We must strengthen and educate families to make a change in our world.If we focus on the Gospel and continue to be a light for the world we can make a difference. People are drawn in by a good example not just words. They want to see someone living the faith joyfully. People must change before society changes.
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Oct 13th 2013 new
(quote) Patrick-341178 said: In a new interview, he said in referring to gay marriage and abortion, "It is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time. The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The churchs pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently."

What do you think about this? Yes, I agree that the Pope or any church leader shouldn't only talk about moral issues but to atleast imply these issues aren't that important, is somewhat troubling for me. It is nice to talk about loving one another and helping the poor, but who is really going to disagree with that? Abortion and gay marriage have absolutely destroyed western culture and for the Pope to seemingly downgrade their importance is not only troubling but a bit of a head scratcher.

What a great topic Patrick! And as I've read through it, a great discussion! I will admit that I too initially found myself wincing at some of the "off the cuff" statements Pope Francis made. After the theological precision of Popes Benedict XVI and John Paul the Great, this new informal style was a little troubling to me.

However, because his statements were provocative, it required me to think about what he was saying, and read what he actually said in context rather than being satisfied with the media soundbite. My initial concern in short order was transformed into admiration for the Holy Spirit working through the cardinals who elected Pope Francis, as well as the Pope's openness to being an His instrument! I now think Pope Francis is exactly what the Church needs. We have become a church hardened into two political landscapes, between which no Catholic can easily navigate! The Church is not a political perspective! Pope Francis is simply reminding us of the reason that our Church exists: the person of Jesus Christ. Our mission is to preach Jesus and to hand on the precious deposit of Faith. Pope Benedict also expressed this same truth in his encyclical Deus Caritas Est:

"We have come to believe in God's love: in these words the Christian can express the fundamental decision of his life. Being Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction." (paragraph 1)

I think what Pope Francis is challenging us to do is to re-envision the office of Peter as primarily pastoral - a Shepherd and Evangelizer to the Person of Christ rather than as a mouthpiece of precise theological statements. As a JPII Catholic, I must admit I've had my feathers ruffled a bit by statements about Pope Francis' kind and welcoming demeanor, as if the last two popes were sour-faced tyrants! JPII certainly won my heart through his evangelical spirit and beautiful witness! And Benedict's beautiful mind - like a "theological surgeon", dissecting and displaying the profound truths of the Deposit! But rather than "playing the game" of comparison and contrast of these wonderful men, I instead simply am in awe of how God is working. Of course there are people out there who are purposely distorting the Pope's message, but this isn't new! They did it to the last two also! What is important is that there are people who are hearing the Gospel as if for the first time - and that that they are now open to this indeed is cause for rejoicing.
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Oct 13th 2013 new
(quote) Kristen-878108 said: What a great topic Patrick! And as I've read through it, a great discussion! I will admit that I too initially found myself wincing at some of the "off the cuff" statements Pope Francis made. After the theological precision of Popes Benedict XVI and John Paul the Great, this new informal style was a little troubling to me.

However, because his statements were provocative, it required me to think about what he was saying, and read what he actually said in context rather than being satisfied with the media soundbite. My initial concern in short order was transformed into admiration for the Holy Spirit working through the cardinals who elected Pope Francis, as well as the Pope's openness to being an His instrument! I now think Pope Francis is exactly what the Church needs. We have become a church hardened into two political landscapes, between which no Catholic can easily navigate! The Church is not a political perspective! Pope Francis is simply reminding us of the reason that our Church exists: the person of Jesus Christ. Our mission is to preach Jesus and to hand on the precious deposit of Faith. Pope Benedict also expressed this same truth in his encyclical Deus Caritas Est:

"We have come to believe in God's love: in these words the Christian can express the fundamental decision of his life. Being Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction." (paragraph 1)

I think what Pope Francis is challenging us to do is to re-envision the office of Peter as primarily pastoral - a Shepherd and Evangelizer to the Person of Christ rather than as a mouthpiece of precise theological statements. As a JPII Catholic, I must admit I've had my feathers ruffled a bit by statements about Pope Francis' kind and welcoming demeanor, as if the last two popes were sour-faced tyrants! JPII certainly won my heart through his evangelical spirit and beautiful witness! And Benedict's beautiful mind - like a "theological surgeon", dissecting and displaying the profound truths of the Deposit! But rather than "playing the game" of comparison and contrast of these wonderful men, I instead simply am in awe of how God is working. Of course there are people out there who are purposely distorting the Pope's message, but this isn't new! They did it to the last two also! What is important is that there are people who are hearing the Gospel as if for the first time - and that that they are now open to this indeed is cause for rejoicing.
What an intelligent and insightful note.

Unfortunately, there are self styled (said because they really are not) traditional Catholics who stand ready to criticize Pope Francis because they take their cue from the lame stream media who have misreported everything he has said since his election.

Even if the media reported accurately, they would still criticize him because they believe they are more catholic and more orthodox than he is.

They are hung up on meaningless "traditions" and don't understand true Traditional teaching when it is presented to them bluntly in a vain attempt to move them out of their comfort zone.

They claim to love the Tridentine Mass and make moronic comments about the Novus and those who might prefer that form. In the process, they prove that they do not really understand the Mass in general, and neither the Novus nor TLM in particular.
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Oct 13th 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: What an intelligent and insightful note.

Unfortunately, there are self styled (said because they really are not) traditional Catholics who stand ready to criticize Pope Francis because they take their cue from the lame stream media who have misreported everything he has said since his election.

Even if the media reported accurately, they would still criticize him because they believe they are more catholic and more orthodox than he is.

They are hung up on meaningless "traditions" and don't understand true Traditional teaching when it is presented to them bluntly in a vain attempt to move them out of their comfort zone.

They claim to love the Tridentine Mass and make moronic comments about the Novus and those who might prefer that form. In the process, they prove that they do not really understand the Mass in general, and neither the Novus nor TLM in particular.
There is much good about the interview with America that is good, as I myself pointed out. Pope Francis seems to understand that the core of the problem is that the modern world is unversed in the Gospel and do not follow Christ. In fact, very few inside the Church do either, from what Sherri Weddel is saying:

www.catholicnewsagency.com

More troubling still is her discovery after working with hundreds of parishes, and personally interviewing a couple thousand practicing Catholics, most of whom described themselves as active and heavily involved in their parishes that many of them have tremendous gaps in their understanding of the faith. They might be in Church every Sunday: ushers, lectors, parish secretaries, religious ed teachers and so on. Yet Weddell not infrequently discovered many who upon sharing with her their own experience of the faith did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, or who intimated that that they don't even believe in a personal God at all! Her personal experience in these one-on-one encounters seems to confirm one of the most disturbing implications of the Pew study. Weddell explains:

It is especially sobering to learn that when Pew surveyors asked the question, Which comes closest to your view of God: God is a person with whom people can have a relationship, or God is an impersonal force? only 48 percent of Catholics were absolutely certain that the God they believed in was a God with whom they could have a personal relationship.

That is one problem that is greater than the problem you point to while talking past those of us who do point out the problems with what Pope Francis has said, which is that the media distorts such interviews to their advantage. I would say that it's worse than that; I would say the big other big problem is that even if many were faithful disciples of Christ the Media is dedicated to a worldview that precludes Him, and will not report accurately.

In other words, we do not have honest mediators of information or honest partners in the representatives of modernity. This is not a new issue, BTW, as the originators of the very periodical Francis interviewed with can to this same conclusion a century and a half ago in the wake of the European Revolutions of 1848. This is the history lesson we can see from John Rao in his article.

www.remnantnewspaper.com

As for the "traditions" you declare to be useless, Paul, they all act as pointers to Christ, and, especially in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, point to Him effectively. For example, how about the statues and stained glass window in Catholic Churches up to the 1950s? They were more than just pretty artwork; but they were visual Gospel readings, that is sermons and readings of the Gospel without words. If anything, the abstract and non-existant styles of art that exist in many parishes is a disservice to modern man who deals more with the visual than the written or spoken word.

We removed a means of drawing people to Christ at moment they were needed the most. I could go on, but I'll just conclude by mentioning G.K. Chesterton, who said that if one found a building in their property and didn't know what it was there for, the intelligent thing is to find out what it is there for before you tear it down. Just tearing it down is the stupid thing, and that's exactly what's happened in too much of the Church today.

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Oct 14th 2013 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: There is much good about the interview with America that is good, as I myself pointed out. Pope Francis seems to understand that the core of the problem is that the modern world is unversed in the Gospel and do not follow Christ. In fact, very few inside the Church do either, from what Sherri Weddel is saying:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/column.php?n=2700

More troubling still is her discovery after working with hundreds of parishes, and personally interviewing a couple thousand practicing Catholics, most of whom described themselves as active and heavily involved in their parishes that many of them have tremendous gaps in their understanding of the faith. They might be in Church every Sunday: ushers, lectors, parish secretaries, religious ed teachers and so on. Yet Weddell not infrequently discovered many who upon sharing with her their own experience of the faith did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, or who intimated that that they don't even believe in a personal God at all! Her personal experience in these one-on-one encounters seems to confirm one of the most disturbing implications of the Pew study. Weddell explains:

It is especially sobering to learn that when Pew surveyors asked the question, Which comes closest to your view of God: God is a person with whom people can have a relationship, or God is an impersonal force? only 48 percent of Catholics were absolutely certain that the God they believed in was a God with whom they could have a personal relationship.

That is one problem that is greater than the problem you point to while talking past those of us who do point out the problems with what Pope Francis has said, which is that the media distorts such interviews to their advantage. I would say that it's worse than that; I would say the big other big problem is that even if many were faithful disciples of Christ the Media is dedicated to a worldview that precludes Him, and will not report accurately.

In other words, we do not have honest mediators of information or honest partners in the representatives of modernity. This is not a new issue, BTW, as the originators of the very periodical Francis interviewed with can to this same conclusion a century and a half ago in the wake of the European Revolutions of 1848. This is the history lesson we can see from John Rao in his article.

http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2013-0930-rao-civilta-cattholica-pope-francis.htm

As for the "traditions" you declare to be useless, Paul, they all act as pointers to Christ, and, especially in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, point to Him effectively. For example, how about the statues and stained glass window in Catholic Churches up to the 1950s? They were more than just pretty artwork; but they were visual Gospel readings, that is sermons and readings of the Gospel without words. If anything, the abstract and non-existant styles of art that exist in many parishes is a disservice to modern man who deals more with the visual than the written or spoken word.

We removed a means of drawing people to Christ at moment they were needed the most. I could go on, but I'll just conclude by mentioning G.K. Chesterton, who said that if one found a building in their property and didn't know what it was there for, the intelligent thing is to find out what it is there for before you tear it down. Just tearing it down is the stupid thing, and that's exactly what's happened in too much of the Church today.

You were unable to catch the significance of putting "traditions" uncapitalized and in quotes and contrasting that with Traditional which was capitalized and unquoted.
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Oct 14th 2013 new

One of the lines that has been used a lot here is I think that the Holy Father.............. at one extreme is:

1) A breath of fresh air and an inspiration of the Holy Spirit, or

2) Clouding Catholic teaching.

Holy Father, please speak unambiguously and tell us what you believe without us having to second guess you. There is no good coming from speaking in riddles apart from total confusion.

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Oct 14th 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: You were unable to catch the significance of putting "traditions" uncapitalized and in quotes and contrasting that with Traditional which was capitalized and unquoted.
I also take note of the fact that you are unable to distinguish between what Vatican II had to say and the abuses that had nothing to do with VII and everything to do with individual priests and Bishops who perpetrated them contrary to what both the Council, Paul Vi, JPII, Benedict XVI and Francis have had to say.

And you also appear to be unable to distinguish between the Novus itself and what Rubrics for that form have to say and those same priests and Bishops who believed then, and too many still believe, that the Novus gives them license to do whatever they please.

I love TLM and have attended far more of them in my lifetime than you probably ever will. And over the years, before VII, I saw many abuses of that form. Some of which make some of the abuses of the Novus look benign.
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