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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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Oct 18th 2013 new
There seem to be a lot of people today who are very qualified (according to their own estimation) to make decisions for the Church and have a better grasp of her teachings than the Church's leaders. "Liberals" are very certain that the Church is dictatorial, unmerciful and patriarchal. "Traditionalists" seem to secretly believe that Lefebvrists are correct and that the seat of Peter is vacant. That is why when people ask me what kind of Catholic I am I say, "I'm just a Catholic." I am not conservative or liberal. I am with the Church, and with the pope. Why? Not because I particularly trust every person who leads the Church, but because of the guarantee of the Holy Spirit's guidance that Jesus promised would lead the Church (John's Gospel), as well as His promise that "the gates of hell will not prevail upon" the Church founded on Peter. As the saying goes, "Where Peter is, there is the Church".

We live in a time where the exercise of authority is in crisis. Obedience then of course is also a dirty word. Liberals and conservatives are both manifesting equally this lack of trust in the office of pope. Whether you disagree with the pope because you are 'more Catholic than the pope' or because you live in 'the spirit of Vatican II', it is same lack of trust (disobedience) to the legitimate authority of the Church. I personally believe we have reached this crisis point in the exercise of authority because we are living through the death throes of the "Age of Revolutions," (starting by Ockham and the Protestant Revolution) and it is ending with "not with a bang but a whimper." (TS Eliot) It might be amusing were it not so sad to watch the pride of Martin Luther manifest itself repeatedly in the Church for the past 500 years, perpetuating the sad reality that Christians cannot fulfill Jesus' plea that we "might be One!" Luther, after breaking from the Church, found very quickly that the truths of Scripture were not as self-evident to all believers as he thought and swiftly drafted his own catechism, leading observers to remark that 'Luther is becoming his own pope'. It appears to me that Luther is not the only person in history who desires to be his own pope!

In early Church history Christians struggled to know where to find the Church of Jesus Christ which faithfully handed on the full teachings of Christ. In the Council of Nicaea bishops felt it necessary to inform believers of the characteristics of that Church: One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. Any group of people who has departed from communion with the Church that manifests these marks has without fail lost the fullness of the Faith quickly after leaving - despite their best intentions! Only the Church Jesus founded carries the guarantee of the Holy Spirit. And THAT is why I trust the Pope and the Church! Not because the Pope always has the best soundbite. Not because it has the right combination of 'smells and bells'. I trust the Church because I trust JESUS. My faith is in JESUS. Not an ideology. Not an aesthetic quality. Not a political party line. JESUS has entrusted this Church with His guarantee and that's why I will always be faithful to it. His Holy Spirit has guided the Church through the leadership of heretic popes, times of scandal and sin, war and greed, laxity and stupidity. So I continue to trust. I leave you with one of my favorite quotes from the English historian Arnold Toynbee:

"I believe that the Catholic Church must be divine, and the proof of its divinity I take to be this: no merely human institution, conducted with such knavish imbecility, would have lasted a fortnight."

So my point is not that you can't question whether the pope's words might have been better said or if his words are being taken out of context or even that you can't disagree with his statements. But if this lack of confidence in the pope leads a person to distrust that the Holy Spirit is still in charge of the Church, then I think a Catholic is at risk of losing the "pearl of great price" of Faith in the person of Jesus Christ as the true King of our Church.
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Oct 18th 2013 new
Correction.SSPX do not believe the Sedevacantist position! In fact, a Oct.13.2013 Sermon preached by Bishop Bernard Fellay,who is head of the SSPX, warns against that very thing.Listen,and then you can retract your statement.
www.catholicmatch.com
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Oct 18th 2013 new
(quote) Kristen-878108 said: There seem to be a lot of people today who are very qualified (according to their own estimation) to make decisions for the Church and have a better grasp of her teachings than the Church's leaders. "Liberals" are very certain that the Church is dictatorial, unmerciful and patriarchal. "Traditionalists" seem to secretly believe that Lefebvrists are correct and that the seat of Peter is vacant. That is why when people ask me what kind of Catholic I am I say, "I'm just a Catholic." I am not conservative or liberal. I am with the Church, and with the pope. Why? Not because I particularly trust every person who leads the Church, but because of the guarantee of the Holy Spirit's guidance that Jesus promised would lead the Church (John's Gospel), as well as His promise that "the gates of hell will not prevail upon" the Church founded on Peter. As the saying goes, "Where Peter is, there is the Church".
We live in a time where the exercise of authority is in crisis. Obedience then of course is also a dirty word. Liberals and conservatives are both manifesting equally this lack of trust in the office of pope. Whether you disagree with the pope because you are 'more Catholic than the pope' or because you live in 'the spirit of Vatican II', it is same lack of trust (disobedience) to the legitimate authority of the Church. I personally believe we have reached this crisis point in the exercise of authority because we are living through the death throes of the "Age of Revolutions," (starting by Ockham and the Protestant Revolution) and it is ending with "not with a bang but a whimper." (TS Eliot) It might be amusing were it not so sad to watch the pride of Martin Luther manifest itself repeatedly in the Church for the past 500 years, perpetuating the sad reality that Christians cannot fulfill Jesus' plea that we "might be One!" Luther, after breaking from the Church, found very quickly that the truths of Scripture were not as self-evident to all believers as he thought and swiftly drafted his own catechism, leading observers to remark that 'Luther is becoming his own pope'. It appears to me that Luther is not the only person in history who desires to be his own pope!
In early Church history Christians struggled to know where to find the Church of Jesus Christ which faithfully handed on the full teachings of Christ. In the Council of Nicaea bishops felt it necessary to inform believers of the characteristics of that Church: One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. Any group of people who has departed from communion with the Church that manifests these marks has without fail lost the fullness of the Faith quickly after leaving - despite their best intentions! Only the Church Jesus founded carries the guarantee of the Holy Spirit. And THAT is why I trust the Pope and the Church! Not because the Pope always has the best soundbite. Not because it has the right combination of 'smells and bells'. I trust the Church because I trust JESUS. My faith is in JESUS. Not an ideology. Not an aesthetic quality. Not a political party line. JESUS has entrusted this Church with His guarantee and that's why I will always be faithful to it. His Holy Spirit has guided the Church through the leadership of heretic popes, times of scandal and sin, war and greed, laxity and stupidity. So I continue to trust. I leave you with one of my favorite quotes from the English historian Arnold Toynbee:
"I believe that the Catholic Church must be divine, and the proof of its divinity I take to be this: no merely human institution, conducted with such knavish imbecility, would have lasted a fortnight."
So my point is not that you can't question whether the pope's words might have been better said or if his words are being taken out of context or even that you can't disagree with his statements. But if this lack of confidence in the pope leads a person to distrust that the Holy Spirit is still in charge of the Church, then I think a Catholic is at risk of losing the "pearl of great price" of Faith in the person of Jesus Christ as the true King of our Church.
Kristen,

Except for the one misstep of equating the SSPX with the sedevacantists, your note is an excellent one. However, equating them with those who believe that they are more Catholic than the Pope and the rest of us, is right on the money.

I would also point out that although Lefebvrists are not sedevancantists, they are only a small step away from that position and the sedevacantists are a natural evolution from them.

The danger to them is the same as faced by Luther. Overly simplified, he started out to reform the Church of his time that was in serious need for renewal. But as the Church did begin the process of renewal it did not move in his direction but moved to return to what Christ taught.

The same will happen to the SSPXers if they don't swallow their pride and accept what the Church is rather than their distorted belief is that it should be.

It is one thing to say, "We love the TLM, don't take it away from us!" It is something else completely and wrong to say that the Novus is an abomination and those who accept it are "not catholic," "evil," that it inherently leads to all kinds of abuse, etc.

It is also something entirely foreign to the very concept of Christ's vision for the Church to be constantly criticizing it and the hierarchy on nonessential issues which they don't understand and are not comfortable with.


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Oct 18th 2013 new
(quote) Kristen-878108 said: There seem to be a lot of people today who are very qualified (according to their own estimation) to make decisions for the Church and have a better grasp of her teachings than the Church's leaders. "Liberals" are very certain that the Church is dictatorial, unmerciful and patriarchal. "Traditionalists" seem to secretly believe that Lefebvrists are correct and that the seat of Peter is vacant. That is why when people ask me what kind of Catholic I am I say, "I'm just a Catholic." I am not conservative or liberal. I am with the Church, and with the pope. Why? Not because I particularly trust every person who leads the Church, but because of the guarantee of the Holy Spirit's guidance that Jesus promised would lead the Church (John's Gospel), as well as His promise that "the gates of hell will not prevail upon" the Church founded on Peter. As the saying goes, "Where Peter is, there is the Church".
We live in a time where the exercise of authority is in crisis. Obedience then of course is also a dirty word. Liberals and conservatives are both manifesting equally this lack of trust in the office of pope. Whether you disagree with the pope because you are 'more Catholic than the pope' or because you live in 'the spirit of Vatican II', it is same lack of trust (disobedience) to the legitimate authority of the Church. I personally believe we have reached this crisis point in the exercise of authority because we are living through the death throes of the "Age of Revolutions," (starting by Ockham and the Protestant Revolution) and it is ending with "not with a bang but a whimper." (TS Eliot) It might be amusing were it not so sad to watch the pride of Martin Luther manifest itself repeatedly in the Church for the past 500 years, perpetuating the sad reality that Christians cannot fulfill Jesus' plea that we "might be One!" Luther, after breaking from the Church, found very quickly that the truths of Scripture were not as self-evident to all believers as he thought and swiftly drafted his own catechism, leading observers to remark that 'Luther is becoming his own pope'. It appears to me that Luther is not the only person in history who desires to be his own pope!
In early Church history Christians struggled to know where to find the Church of Jesus Christ which faithfully handed on the full teachings of Christ. In the Council of Nicaea bishops felt it necessary to inform believers of the characteristics of that Church: One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. Any group of people who has departed from communion with the Church that manifests these marks has without fail lost the fullness of the Faith quickly after leaving - despite their best intentions! Only the Church Jesus founded carries the guarantee of the Holy Spirit. And THAT is why I trust the Pope and the Church! Not because the Pope always has the best soundbite. Not because it has the right combination of 'smells and bells'. I trust the Church because I trust JESUS. My faith is in JESUS. Not an ideology. Not an aesthetic quality. Not a political party line. JESUS has entrusted this Church with His guarantee and that's why I will always be faithful to it. His Holy Spirit has guided the Church through the leadership of heretic popes, times of scandal and sin, war and greed, laxity and stupidity. So I continue to trust. I leave you with one of my favorite quotes from the English historian Arnold Toynbee:
"I believe that the Catholic Church must be divine, and the proof of its divinity I take to be this: no merely human institution, conducted with such knavish imbecility, would have lasted a fortnight."
So my point is not that you can't question whether the pope's words might have been better said or if his words are being taken out of context or even that you can't disagree with his statements. But if this lack of confidence in the pope leads a person to distrust that the Holy Spirit is still in charge of the Church, then I think a Catholic is at risk of losing the "pearl of great price" of Faith in the person of Jesus Christ as the true King of our Church.
scratchchin I am glad that you are qualified to judge who is Catholic and who is not,"according to your own estimation that is."
"I am Catholic" and "with the Church" also.Your post sounds like you are tooting your own Horn.Just saying.
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Oct 18th 2013 new
(quote) Kristen-878108 said: We live in a time where the exercise of authority is in crisis. Obedience then of course is also a dirty word. Liberals and conservatives are both manifesting equally this lack of trust in the office of pope. Whether you disagree with the pope because you are 'more Catholic than the pope' or because you live in 'the spirit of Vatican II', it is same lack of trust (disobedience) to the legitimate authority of the Church.

With due respect Kristen, the Pope is coming out with some very "out there" statements which are bordering on being an attack on the faith. The last clanger (don't pray "memorized prayers" ) has alarmed even those who think that the Pope is the greatest man on earth.

The Catholic faith and teaching has been marked by an unwavering consistency from generation to generation prior to modern times. There was an accepted tradition of inheriting the deposits of the faith that have been passed down (i.e. they were unchanging). There was continuation and development of the faith and not a revolutionary spirit where teachings that were once right are now wrong and vice versa, or disciplines that were once embraced now being totally rejected. Who has control of the Vatican? Are those people Catholics? If they are not Catholic, should we obey them if they teach in error? One of the greatest forces in the Church in the USA in modern times was this man:

www.renewamerica.com

Do bad guys exist in the Church? When they teach in error or distort the faith, do we follow them like sheep or do we remain Catholic?

Do I obey the Pope and throw all my prayer books and my Rosary beads into the trash can? To use a well used line on this thread "I believe that is what the Pope has asked us to do." .

This thread could have a very long life as the next clanger is likely to be within the next week. I suggest that we all pray for the Pope.




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Oct 18th 2013 new
To follow up my prior post what I mean by "remaining Catholic" contrary to public opinion is not using my personal opinion of what Catholic is but by what being Catholic was in 1600, 1700,1800, 1900, 1950 which was essentially unchanged.



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Oct 18th 2013 new

The "quality" of reporting in the media when it concerns the Catholic Church is horrendous. The so-called mainstream media wants ten-second sound-bites that take anything and everything out of context, out of proportion, and distort the meaning of things to the point where I don't even listen anymore. Oh yeah, add some manufactured controversy to stir things up, and there you have "journalism". I have not yet had the opportunity to read the full text of the Popes comments that has been posted in the thread, but will endeavour to do so. I doubt that I will find the left-wing hippy flower child that the liberal media tried to manufacture out of that interview.

From what I have been able to gather about Pope Francis, he wishes to address issues related to the poor during his papacy. That is entirely in line with Catholic teaching. If we are honest and objective while being respectful, Pope Benedicts approach was more about theology, consistency of Catholic teaching and prayers, and he sought to build bridges with the SSPX. My sense is that Pope Francis would rather feed the poor than examine Latin translations to ensure consistency. That is not a criticism of either; it may just explain why a Pope would indicate that what constitutes a moral life is broader than just issues related to chastity, and why God hears our prayers even when we use our own words.

Praying without reflecting on the meaning of what we are saying can happen to the best of Catholics, as we can get distracted, or just want to get through the decade of the rosary to get on with the next thing we have to do on a given day. It is not the ideal way to practice the faith. We should reflect on the meaning of what we are saying when we pray. Is this what Pope Francis meant when he commented on memorized prayers? Did he actually tell people to toss their rosaries or do we have hyperbole, misquotes and truth-stretching out there in cyberspace?

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Oct 18th 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: Correction.SSPX do not believe the Sedevacantist position! In fact, a Oct.13.2013 Sermon preached by Bishop Bernard Fellay,who is head of the SSPX, warns against that very thing.Listen,and then you can retract your statement.
http://www.catholicmatch.com/forums/topics/posts.html?topic_id=192197
I retract my statement on my point. Thank you for your correction! smile
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Oct 18th 2013 new
(quote) Kristen-878108 said: There seem to be a lot of people today who are very qualified (according to their own estimation) to make decisions for the Church and have a better grasp of her teachings than the Church's leaders. "Liberals" are very certain that the Church is dictatorial, unmerciful and patriarchal. "Traditionalists" seem to secretly believe that Lefebvrists are correct and that the seat of Peter is vacant. That is why when people ask me what kind of Catholic I am I say, "I'm just a Catholic." I am not conservative or liberal. I am with the Church, and with the pope. Why? Not because I particularly trust every person who leads the Church, but because of the guarantee of the Holy Spirit's guidance that Jesus promised would lead the Church (John's Gospel), as well as His promise that "the gates of hell will not prevail upon" the Church founded on Peter. As the saying goes, "Where Peter is, there is the Church".
We live in a time where the exercise of authority is in crisis. Obedience then of course is also a dirty word. Liberals and conservatives are both manifesting equally this lack of trust in the office of pope. Whether you disagree with the pope because you are 'more Catholic than the pope' or because you live in 'the spirit of Vatican II', it is same lack of trust (disobedience) to the legitimate authority of the Church. I personally believe we have reached this crisis point in the exercise of authority because we are living through the death throes of the "Age of Revolutions," (starting by Ockham and the Protestant Revolution) and it is ending with "not with a bang but a whimper." (TS Eliot) It might be amusing were it not so sad to watch the pride of Martin Luther manifest itself repeatedly in the Church for the past 500 years, perpetuating the sad reality that Christians cannot fulfill Jesus' plea that we "might be One!" Luther, after breaking from the Church, found very quickly that the truths of Scripture were not as self-evident to all believers as he thought and swiftly drafted his own catechism, leading observers to remark that 'Luther is becoming his own pope'. It appears to me that Luther is not the only person in history who desires to be his own pope!
In early Church history Christians struggled to know where to find the Church of Jesus Christ which faithfully handed on the full teachings of Christ. In the Council of Nicaea bishops felt it necessary to inform believers of the characteristics of that Church: One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. Any group of people who has departed from communion with the Church that manifests these marks has without fail lost the fullness of the Faith quickly after leaving - despite their best intentions! Only the Church Jesus founded carries the guarantee of the Holy Spirit. And THAT is why I trust the Pope and the Church! Not because the Pope always has the best soundbite. Not because it has the right combination of 'smells and bells'. I trust the Church because I trust JESUS. My faith is in JESUS. Not an ideology. Not an aesthetic quality. Not a political party line. JESUS has entrusted this Church with His guarantee and that's why I will always be faithful to it. His Holy Spirit has guided the Church through the leadership of heretic popes, times of scandal and sin, war and greed, laxity and stupidity. So I continue to trust. I leave you with one of my favorite quotes from the English historian Arnold Toynbee:
"I believe that the Catholic Church must be divine, and the proof of its divinity I take to be this: no merely human institution, conducted with such knavish imbecility, would have lasted a fortnight."
So my point is not that you can't question whether the pope's words might have been better said or if his words are being taken out of context or even that you can't disagree with his statements. But if this lack of confidence in the pope leads a person to distrust that the Holy Spirit is still in charge of the Church, then I think a Catholic is at risk of losing the "pearl of great price" of Faith in the person of Jesus Christ as the true King of our Church.
Contra your asertion, the SSPX are not Sedevacantist. They do acknowledge the Pope as the head of the Sea of Peter. Real sedevacantists are few and very scattered.

However, while the Pope is the center of unity for the Church, and speaks infallably in terms of faith and morals, there are areas where they have needed to be admonished. The most famous episode is mentioned in St. Paul's letter to the Galatians, where he "withstood him to his face" for separating himself from the converts of Antioch after the Council of Jerusalem. There is also St. Catherine's exhortation to the Pope to return to Rome and end the French captivity.

Imagine if, because the Pope was considered above criticism, he stayed in Avingon during the French Revolution?

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Oct 18th 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: I am glad that you are qualified to judge who is Catholic and who is not,"according to your own estimation that is."
"I am Catholic" and "with the Church" also.Your post sounds like you are tooting your own Horn.Just saying.
I don't have to toot my own horn. If one is with the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church that is under the authority of the bishop of Rome, one is Catholic. I would assume you also are a Catholic according to this reckoning. smile
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