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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Oct 5th 2013 new
(quote) Lynea-297530 said: Sean was not saying anything that was scandalous. His observation that there are many prelates and therefore laity under them that do not hold, teach and defend the true teachings of the Church is an objective statement. There has not been a pope that I can think of that has not pointed this out. The Church is both a mystical body and a visible body, and not everyone in the visible body is in the mystical body. The Church teaches this. This is not a contradiction within her, what the Church says about this is true. If you mean to say that anything any prelate says (even from the top all the way down) is truth, then you do not believe what Christ has taught nor the Church since Christ. Holy doctrine can only be true if it is 'kato licas' --- entirely whole/united to what was passed down from Christ, true then, true for all peoples, all places and all times. Much of what is being taught is at least tainted in part by heresies... and then nothing new --- heresies that have already pointed out by Holy Mother Church as heretical.

So who is write? is it the Church when it said these were heresies, or the 'church' when it says these are the newly revealed, more fully revealed truths? A pronouncement of ex cathedra must be made for it to hold infallibility. So something like a condemnation from a pope is ex cathedra, and you can be sure that it is always false. Like, the idea that you can die in mortal sin, and count on getting to heaven --- that's not true today, and it never will be. The idea that there is salvation outside the Church (a person in mortal sin is outside the mystical body until they are reconciled), is still dogma. Many prelates would say otherwise, but they are wrong. The scandal is with these prelates, and that is not determined by how many people FEEL wronged, it doesn't take other people's opinions or feelings into account --- it's just dogma. We are obliged to accept it as Catholics.

Based on my experience, there's a strong tendency to avoid talking about reality in the Church. For example, I think the lack of conviction among many clergy and religious is a huge problem. There just doesn't seem to be a real concern about the loss of so many faithful.
Oct 7th 2013 new
Yep, or the loss of so many souls in the process.
Oct 8th 2013 new
(quote) Lynea-297530 said: Yep, or the loss of so many souls in the process.
There's not much concern about souls. But, if somebody threatens ecclesiastical control over parish property or finances, watch out. I'm familiar with many parish closings. In most (i.e., all) cases of which I know, no pastor, bishop or diocesan official ever has expressed concern about defections from the Church. But if an A & R society refuses to give its money to the consolidated parish, the diocese and pastor will spring into high gear to get that money back.
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