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A place to learn, mingle, and share

This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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Oct 19th 2013 new
Wow Gabor that's the nicest thing someone has said to me all day! rose hug
Oct 19th 2013 new
I attend the Latin Mass when ever I can, we have one here once a month, otherwise it is a 200 mile jaunt. I grew up with it and even served it when younger, so glad to go again.
Oct 22nd 2013 new
This priest is an absolute treasure:

www.youtube.com

He has a great grasp of what the Mass is all about. There are several videos on Youtube that are worth viewing. Father Rodriguez is very humble and has a great respect for Christ and His Church.
Oct 23rd 2013 new
I attend both. . .I will say the TLM definitely helped me to get much more out of the NO, in terms of really praying the Mass. While I haven't totally given up on the NO, I still prefer it to be more on the traditional/orthodox side.
Oct 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Gabor-19025 said:
"How does the Novus Ordo Mass give greater glory to God?" If anyone can honestly answer that in terms of the Mass itself or its fruits I would be interested in reading those views.



When I posted the above I did so with genuine curiosity and openness to reading any responses. I am uninterested in arguing backwards and forwards (too tiring for an old man like mecloud ) but am interested in why the massive liturgical changes were for the betterment of the Church?

A great video about the history of the Mass by Father Calvin Goodwin is below:

www.youtube.com

Note the comment about the small changes over centuries to the Mass to enhance it.
Oct 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Claudine-882177 said: I attend both. . .I will say the TLM definitely helped me to get much more out of the NO, in terms of really praying the Mass. While I haven't totally given up on the NO, I still prefer it to be more on the traditional/orthodox side.
thumbsup
Oct 23rd 2013 new

Solemn High Traditional Latin Mass Cathedral of the Blessed Sacrament, Sacramento (May 5, 2012) HD

www.youtube.com
Oct 23rd 2013 new

Solemn Pontifical High Mass of the Extraordinary Form with Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone

www.youtube.com
Oct 31st 2013 new
(quote) Gabor-19025 said: As someone who grew up in the post Vatican II years without any knowledge of the Tridentine Mass I feel that I discovered something special when the Traditional Latin Mass found me. There are several videos that compare the Novus Ordo Mass and the Traditional Latin Mass. In defence of those who support the New Mass, many of those videos choose versions of the New Mass that are very unorthodox. I have found a video that does not do that so it is a fair representation of what goes on in "Novus Ordo Land" and in "TLM Land". The video is below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAcmODuUz44

It gives me a lot of joy when someone discovers the TLM so I promote it when I can.

A question that was put my Father Michael Rodriguez (of Texas- an ex Novus Ordo priest) in a video I recently watched was:

"How does the Novus Ordo Mass give greater glory to God?" If anyone can honestly answer that in terms of the Mass itself or its fruits I would be interested in reading those views.



Dear Gabor,

So having looked at the video you posted I must start with what seems plainly manifest to me; this video is not an apples to apples comparison between the Tridentine and Vatican II (as I like to call it) liturgies. The choice of background music (for the T Rite it's moving and subtle, for the V2 Rite provincial), the lighting (warm and a bit dark vs neutral), the priest (young and handsome vs older and bit homely) the church building and the angles used all serve to make the Tridentine Mass look far better than the VII mass. You need to find a fairer video.

I too grew up post V2, so I did not get to experience the older rite, but I did spend 2 years in the seminary back in the 90's and got to talk to plenty of priests who did serve both before and after V2, and as Paul said in a different topic there was plenty of abuse going on with the mass before V2. Not only that, but there was plenty of rotten stuff in general throughout the Church, much of which has been purged from the Church.

Nowadays all the abuse is in the new rite mainly because it's really hard to get the old rite even started. If someone wants to do the old rite they need to find priests to do it (and they need to learn the rite) get the proper vestments and such. The only priests who celebrate the old rite are the ones who really like it. If we still used the old rite then I believe there would be the same amount of abuse, perhaps more.

Several years back I was traveling with a friend who had converted to the Catholic faith and whom I had sponsored. We went down to St. Louis where I had gone to college and went to mass at the St. Louis Basilica. If you have never been there it is an absolutely gorgeous church covered with amazing mosaics. A priest friend of mine was saying mass and after the mass we were talking with him at the after mass social. My friend loves the Eucharist (in fact he goes to daily mass and has logged every single Eucharist he has received and the intention he offered the mass for- it's cool looking through his log and seeing on such and such a date when it was intention offered for you!) Anyway Fr. asked my friend how he liked the mass. My friend said it was really nice, but if it had been a weekday mass in the basement of some rural parish it would have been just as awesome, because Jesus would have been present in the Eucharist. Fr. paused, gave a thoughtful look, and said "Nah, this is better."

Of course they are both right. Regardless of the "quality" of the mass or the rite, Jesus is fully present. That includes the 30 some rites in use by the Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches. For someone to claim a rite 'hurts" people is insane. On the other hand our response to the gift of Christ in the liturgy can be better or worse.

My main issue with the old rite is that it was give to us when the average parishioner was an illiterate European peasant. I've never felt that Jesus was particularly more present there, and I felt that my ability to respond to the love of God is absent. The new rite was given for a cosmopolitan Church. Yes, it is more adaptive. That's a good thing. St. Therese tells us that God loves the humble daisy as much as the noble rose, and the current liturgy reflects that. It can be celebrated in a way that speaks both to the daisy and the rose. Not only that, but a person who is a rose can appreciate the well done liturgy of the daisy and vice versa.

I have been to new churches which should be demolished. I have been to new churches that lift me to Heaven. I have heard contempory choirs that made me want to stuff my ears and contemporay choirs that moved my soul. I have heard traditional organ/Chant masses that made me want to stuff my ears and ones that moved my soul. One of the most moving masses I went to was at a predominantly African American parish in Denver. The music was gospel yet very Catholic and teh people incredibly warm and and Christ was so obviously present in not only the Eucharist but also the people. That was the mass you should have contrasted with the Tridentine Rite, and you would have found the same sense of mystery and yet I believe the sense of community even more visible.


Oct 31st 2013 new
(quote) Matt-61677 said: Dear Gabor,

So having looked at the video you posted I must start with what seems plainly manifest to me; this video is not an apples to apples comparison between the Tridentine and Vatican II (as I like to call it) liturgies. The choice of background music (for the T Rite it's moving and subtle, for the V2 Rite provincial), the lighting (warm and a bit dark vs neutral), the priest (young and handsome vs older and bit homely) the church building and the angles used all serve to make the Tridentine Mass look far better than the VII mass. You need to find a fairer video.

I too grew up post V2, so I did not get to experience the older rite, but I did spend 2 years in the seminary back in the 90's and got to talk to plenty of priests who did serve both before and after V2, and as Paul said in a different topic there was plenty of abuse going on with the mass before V2. Not only that, but there was plenty of rotten stuff in general throughout the Church, much of which has been purged from the Church.

Nowadays all the abuse is in the new rite mainly because it's really hard to get the old rite even started. If someone wants to do the old rite they need to find priests to do it (and they need to learn the rite) get the proper vestments and such. The only priests who celebrate the old rite are the ones who really like it. If we still used the old rite then I believe there would be the same amount of abuse, perhaps more.

Several years back I was traveling with a friend who had converted to the Catholic faith and whom I had sponsored. We went down to St. Louis where I had gone to college and went to mass at the St. Louis Basilica. If you have never been there it is an absolutely gorgeous church covered with amazing mosaics. A priest friend of mine was saying mass and after the mass we were talking with him at the after mass social. My friend loves the Eucharist (in fact he goes to daily mass and has logged every single Eucharist he has received and the intention he offered the mass for- it's cool looking through his log and seeing on such and such a date when it was intention offered for you!) Anyway Fr. asked my friend how he liked the mass. My friend said it was really nice, but if it had been a weekday mass in the basement of some rural parish it would have been just as awesome, because Jesus would have been present in the Eucharist. Fr. paused, gave a thoughtful look, and said "Nah, this is better."

Of course they are both right. Regardless of the "quality" of the mass or the rite, Jesus is fully present. That includes the 30 some rites in use by the Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches. For someone to claim a rite 'hurts" people is insane. On the other hand our response to the gift of Christ in the liturgy can be better or worse.

My main issue with the old rite is that it was give to us when the average parishioner was an illiterate European peasant. I've never felt that Jesus was particularly more present there, and I felt that my ability to respond to the love of God is absent. The new rite was given for a cosmopolitan Church. Yes, it is more adaptive. That's a good thing. St. Therese tells us that God loves the humble daisy as much as the noble rose, and the current liturgy reflects that. It can be celebrated in a way that speaks both to the daisy and the rose. Not only that, but a person who is a rose can appreciate the well done liturgy of the daisy and vice versa.

I have been to new churches which should be demolished. I have been to new churches that lift me to Heaven. I have heard contempory choirs that made me want to stuff my ears and contemporay choirs that moved my soul. I have heard traditional organ/Chant masses that made me want to stuff my ears and ones that moved my soul. One of the most moving masses I went to was at a predominantly African American parish in Denver. The music was gospel yet very Catholic and teh people incredibly warm and and Christ was so obviously present in not only the Eucharist but also the people. That was the mass you should have contrasted with the Tridentine Rite, and you would have found the same sense of mystery and yet I believe the sense of community even more visible.


Excellent post, Matt!!

One thing everyone should remember, the Mass is not about feelings. As you so forcefully pointed out it is all about Jesus' presence.

If one centers on that and feels good about it as well, that is even better. But all that matters is that acknowlege God's presence.


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