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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

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Oct 31st 2013 new
(quote) Matt-61677 said: Dear Gabor,

So having looked at the video you posted I must start with what seems plainly manifest to me; this video is not an apples to apples comparison between the Tridentine and Vatican II (as I like to call it) liturgies. The choice of background music (for the T Rite it's moving and subtle, for the V2 Rite provincial), the lighting (warm and a bit dark vs neutral), the priest (young and handsome vs older and bit homely) the church building and the angles used all serve to make the Tridentine Mass look far better than the VII mass. You need to find a fairer video.

I too grew up post V2, so I did not get to experience the older rite, but I did spend 2 years in the seminary back in the 90's and got to talk to plenty of priests who did serve both before and after V2, and as Paul said in a different topic there was plenty of abuse going on with the mass before V2. Not only that, but there was plenty of rotten stuff in general throughout the Church, much of which has been purged from the Church.

Nowadays all the abuse is in the new rite mainly because it's really hard to get the old rite even started. If someone wants to do the old rite they need to find priests to do it (and they need to learn the rite) get the proper vestments and such. The only priests who celebrate the old rite are the ones who really like it. If we still used the old rite then I believe there would be the same amount of abuse, perhaps more.

Several years back I was traveling with a friend who had converted to the Catholic faith and whom I had sponsored. We went down to St. Louis where I had gone to college and went to mass at the St. Louis Basilica. If you have never been there it is an absolutely gorgeous church covered with amazing mosaics. A priest friend of mine was saying mass and after the mass we were talking with him at the after mass social. My friend loves the Eucharist (in fact he goes to daily mass and has logged every single Eucharist he has received and the intention he offered the mass for- it's cool looking through his log and seeing on such and such a date when it was intention offered for you!) Anyway Fr. asked my friend how he liked the mass. My friend said it was really nice, but if it had been a weekday mass in the basement of some rural parish it would have been just as awesome, because Jesus would have been present in the Eucharist. Fr. paused, gave a thoughtful look, and said "Nah, this is better."

Of course they are both right. Regardless of the "quality" of the mass or the rite, Jesus is fully present. That includes the 30 some rites in use by the Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches. For someone to claim a rite 'hurts" people is insane. On the other hand our response to the gift of Christ in the liturgy can be better or worse.

My main issue with the old rite is that it was give to us when the average parishioner was an illiterate European peasant. I've never felt that Jesus was particularly more present there, and I felt that my ability to respond to the love of God is absent. The new rite was given for a cosmopolitan Church. Yes, it is more adaptive. That's a good thing. St. Therese tells us that God loves the humble daisy as much as the noble rose, and the current liturgy reflects that. It can be celebrated in a way that speaks both to the daisy and the rose. Not only that, but a person who is a rose can appreciate the well done liturgy of the daisy and vice versa.

I have been to new churches which should be demolished. I have been to new churches that lift me to Heaven. I have heard contempory choirs that made me want to stuff my ears and contemporay choirs that moved my soul. I have heard traditional organ/Chant masses that made me want to stuff my ears and ones that moved my soul. One of the most moving masses I went to was at a predominantly African American parish in Denver. The music was gospel yet very Catholic and teh people incredibly warm and and Christ was so obviously present in not only the Eucharist but also the people. That was the mass you should have contrasted with the Tridentine Rite, and you would have found the same sense of mystery and yet I believe the sense of community even more visible.


Hi Matt,

Your post was a pleasure to read for many reasons including the tone. I find that if anyone supports tradition in the Forums that it is often attacked and those defending tradition are labelled with the "P" word. Any web links provided to support a position are not read but at the same time refuted?

I am aware that no two people have the same experience so generalisations can be unfair but in the video I posted, the Novus Ordo Mass is very similar to the approximate 5,000 Novus Ordo Masses I have attended all over the world including memories as an Altar Boy as a youngster when I was "closer to the action". I accept your point of view and cannot comment on your experiences. In my local Archdiocese I am very disappointed that anyone that supports tradition (including priests) are generally looked down upon and considered to be a little odd. I particularly find it sad when a TLM priest is mocked and laughed at behind his back by his brother priests. My experiences with those priests are nothing but positive and they are great role models to me.

Very few people claim that the Novus Ordo Mass is invalid. I stay away from it for many reasons but I do not think lesser of those who attend that Mass. I just question why the Church has needed to innovate so aggressively and in the process create division. The division is evident by the many different points of view here. Who is right? The politically correct answer is that we are all right. The infiltration into the Church by various anti-Catholic forces is also something that is widely accepted, even my more "liberal" Catholics. Have those forces had an impact on the Church?

It does delight me when people discover the TLM because it has had a profound impact on me and I wish that impact to be experienced by others. Many I have spoken to feel the same and we are blessed to have access to the TLM on a daily basis where it was non-existent 15 years ago.








Nov 1st 2013 new
(quote) Gabor-19025 said:

Hi Matt,

Your post was a pleasure to read for many reasons including the tone. I find that if anyone supports tradition in the Forums that it is often attacked and those defending tradition are labelled with the "P" word. Any web links provided to support a position are not read but at the same time refuted?

I am aware that no two people have the same experience so generalisations can be unfair but in the video I posted, the Novus Ordo Mass is very similar to the approximate 5,000 Novus Ordo Masses I have attended all over the world including memories as an Altar Boy as a youngster when I was "closer to the action". I accept your point of view and cannot comment on your experiences. In my local Archdiocese I am very disappointed that anyone that supports tradition (including priests) are generally looked down upon and considered to be a little odd. I particularly find it sad when a TLM priest is mocked and laughed at behind his back by his brother priests. My experiences with those priests are nothing but positive and they are great role models to me.

Very few people claim that the Novus Ordo Mass is invalid. I stay away from it for many reasons but I do not think lesser of those who attend that Mass. I just question why the Church has needed to innovate so aggressively and in the process create division. The division is evident by the many different points of view here. Who is right? The politically correct answer is that we are all right. The infiltration into the Church by various anti-Catholic forces is also something that is widely accepted, even my more "liberal" Catholics. Have those forces had an impact on the Church?

It does delight me when people discover the TLM because it has had a profound impact on me and I wish that impact to be experienced by others. Many I have spoken to feel the same and we are blessed to have access to the TLM on a daily basis where it was non-existent 15 years ago.








Dear Gabor-

Thank you for the compliment! It's not just what we say but how we say it that's important, so I try to be as clear as I can and to always assume the best of people!

Just to clarify, my issue was your use of the word "fair" to describe the video. My specific objection was that the video is artistically edited in such a way to make the old rite look more impressive than the new. What I am saying is that the video editor used the techniques of describing the old rite in passionate, vivid language and the new rite in passionless, dull prose. That's what not fair. If it is to be a fair then it probably should have used the same priest doing both rites in the same church, using the same angles and lighting and without added music.

What the video does seem to do is capture your experience of the rites. That's fine, but your description of the video should say that. It should not say that it's a fair comparison of the rites.

I also did not say that people claimed the new rite was invalid. Yes some do. What I said is that people claim the new rite is harmful. I often see are accusations, some vague, others specific, that many of the problems we see in the church today spring from the new rite. One example is at the March for Life one year I saw a group protesting that abortion is the result of communion in the hand. Others link the loss of priests, nuns and vocations to the new rite.

It would be very nice to run an experiment in which we run one history with the old rite and one with the new and compare the results. Alas we can't. It's my belief that we are in fact far better off with the reforms of Vatican II than we are without. Recent trends show that orthodox orders and dioceses are actually experiencing a rise in vocations. These dioceses and orders typically use the new rite. In addition we see a certain flow in and out of the Church. Specifically we see intelligent, thoughtful, joyful and loving people entering the Church, usually to the new rite, for the organic wholesomeness of the Church teaching and it's beauty. We see those leaving who can't think and/ or who are hurt. They often move to community Churches in which the service is 65%-75% of a Catholic mass!

This is an important point! Not everyone is a clear thinker! I certainly will attend mass whether it is "done well" or not. But many of our brothers and sisters will leave if they don't get "the mass their way." While this is a fault we need to remember the admonitions of St. Paul-

"
We who are strong ought to put up with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves;a2let each of us please our neighbor for the good, for building up" (Rom 15:1)

and


Although I am free in regard to all, I have made myself a slave to all so as to win over as many as possible.
To the Jews I became like a Jew to win over Jews; to those under the law I became like one under the lawthough I myself am not under the lawto win over those under the law. To those outside the law I became like one outside the lawthough I am not outside Gods law but within the law of Christto win over those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak. I have become all things to all, to save at least some.All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it" (1 Cr 9:19-23)

Yes, we need to weed out bad theology (especially from song books!) And I would certainly like to get rid of or fix all the badly designed churches out there. But I just re-read the Eucharitic prayers. They are beautiful. And the new rite allows for a much more vivid response from God's people for his gift! For our relationship with Christ is like that of the lover and his beloved in the Song of Songs. Should not the priest, who is in persona Christi, and who marries the Church, face his bride during the foretaste of Heaven? Should not the bride be able to respond to this gift of love with enthusiasm and passion? Anyway, just some more thoughts and I will stop there for now!

Peace in Christ,

Matt
Nov 1st 2013 new
(quote) Matt-61677 said: It would be very nice to run an experiment in which we run one history with the old rite and one with the new and compare the results. Alas we can't. It's my belief that we are in fact far better off with the reforms of Vatican II than we are without.
Matt,
I am going to sign off with some statistics that I found:

In the USA:

Active Priests:
1965 - 58,000
2002 - 45,000

Ordinations:
1965 - 1,575
2002 - 450

Priestless Parishes:
1965 - 549 (about 1%)
2002 - 2,928 (about 15%)

Seminarians:
1965 - 49,000
2002 - 4,700

Sisters:
1965 - 180,000
2002 - 75,000

Brothers:
1965 - 12,000
2002 - 5,700

Jesuits:
1965 - 5,277
2002 - 3,172

Franciscans:
1965 - 2,534
2002 - 1,492

Christian Brothers:
1965 - 2,434
2002 - 959

Redemptorists:
1965 - 1,148
2002 - 349

Catholic High Schools:
1965 - 1,566
2002 - 786

Catholic High School Students:
1965 - 700,000
2002 - 386,000

Parochial Grade Schools:
1965 - 10,504
2002 - 6,623

Parochial Grade School Students:
1965 - 4.5 million
2002 - 1.9 million

Infant Baptisms:
1965 - 1.3 million
2002 - 1 million

Adult Baptisms (conversions):
1965 - 126,000
2002 - 80,000

Catholic Marriages:
1965 - 352,000
2002 - 256,000

Annulments:
1965 - 338
2002 - 50,000

Regular Mass Attendance - study #1:
1958 - 74% of Catholics (Gallup Pole)
1994 - 26.6% (Notre Dame study)

Regular Mass Attendance - Fordham University study:
1965 - 65% of Catholics
2000 - 25%

Misc. (source, National Catholic Reporter)
77% believe Catholics don't have to attend Mass on Sunday
65% believe Catholics can divorce and remarry
53% believe Catholics can have an abortion
10% accept the Church's teaching on birth control (source, Notre Dame poll)
70% believe the Eucharist is a "symbolic reminder" of Our Lord (New York Times poll)

(Source: Liturgical Time Bombs in Vatican II, by Michael Davies, TAN Books, copyright 2003)

Nov 1st 2013 new
I agree with Matt's assessment, that an apples-to-apples video comparison (of the two masses) is necessary. The two videos originally posted are more like a comparison between an apple and a rock.


A positive difference in switching largely to the NO Mass...
That aside, I come from a large family of 7 kids. I have 5 brothers and a sister. We range in age from about 59 to 45. My oldest 2 or 3 brothers experienced the transition between the TLM and the NO Masses at a small country parish in Washington State (USA). My mom (now about 82) mentioned once that she appreciated when the Mass switched from Latin to English. Her simple reason.... She said that my older brothers stopped being so restless during Mass and they started paying more attention to the Mass.

I am not opposed to the TLM, but I do see positives in the NO.

Incidentally, below is a TLM (May 5th 2013), after at $34 million restoration (in 2005) at the Cathedral of the Blessed Sacrament in Sacramento, CA USA. This is certainly the most beautiful cathedral that I have ever visited.

Photos of the cathedral: www.google.com

TLM (May 5th, 2013) www.youtube.com

Ed


Nov 1st 2013 new
(quote) Gabor-19025 said: Active Priests:

1965 - 58,000
2002 - 45,000


Concerning just the priests....

Those numbers seem accurate to me. However, one statistic that I don't believe was represented is the very, very large increase in Deacons between 1965 and 2002... or 2013. When I was a young boy (in the late 60s and 70s), I had never even met a Deacon (to my knowledge). Now I see numerous Deacons in parishes. In just my two parishes in Auburn, CA, we have total of 3 priests assigned (to the parishes) and 3 or 4 deacons. Of course the deacons don't replace a priest, but they do a tremendous amount of work and perform certain duties during Mass, thus freeing up the priests to do what only they are uniquely qualified and ordained to do.

Also, at least in my part of the U.S., we receive many priests from other countries. I don't know if that would or would not be counted in the tally of active priests in your list. It is not unusual for us to get priests from countries like Nigeria and the Philippines. My parish just got a brand new priest (in his late 20s or early 30s). He was just ordained in the Sacramento diocese. He grew up in the Philippines and speaks English just like he was born in the U.S. I think that he will be a fine priest.

Ed
Nov 1st 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: Solemn High Traditional Latin Mass Cathedral of the Blessed Sacrament, Sacramento (May 5, 2012) HD http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqIl7IB3n4g
Bernard,

If you ever get to Sacramento, the newly renovated cathedral is a must-see. Below is a link to some photos. The photos don't really do it justice, but give you a good idea of how spectacular it is. I was originally built somewhere between the 1860s and 1880s. A $34 million renovation was completed in 2005. To numerous to count.... all of the stained glass widows, statues, paintings, murals, and the impressive architecture. It is actually much better than when originally constructed.... as they were able to incorporate new features that were apparently planned originally, but could not be included due to an originally more limited budget.

www.google.com

Ed
Nov 1st 2013 new
(quote) Jane-933948 said: Wow Gabor that's the nicest thing someone has said to me all day!
you two are making me giggle
Nov 1st 2013 new
(quote) Matt-61677 said: Dear Gabor,

So having looked at the video you posted I must start with what seems plainly manifest to me; this video is not an apples to apples comparison between the Tridentine and Vatican II (as I like to call it) liturgies. The choice of background music (for the T Rite it's moving and subtle, for the V2 Rite provincial), the lighting (warm and a bit dark vs neutral), the priest (young and handsome vs older and bit homely) the church building and the angles used all serve to make the Tridentine Mass look far better than the VII mass. You need to find a fairer video.

I too grew up post V2, so I did not get to experience the older rite, but I did spend 2 years in the seminary back in the 90's and got to talk to plenty of priests who did serve both before and after V2, and as Paul said in a different topic there was plenty of abuse going on with the mass before V2. Not only that, but there was plenty of rotten stuff in general throughout the Church, much of which has been purged from the Church.

Nowadays all the abuse is in the new rite mainly because it's really hard to get the old rite even started. If someone wants to do the old rite they need to find priests to do it (and they need to learn the rite) get the proper vestments and such. The only priests who celebrate the old rite are the ones who really like it. If we still used the old rite then I believe there would be the same amount of abuse, perhaps more.

Several years back I was traveling with a friend who had converted to the Catholic faith and whom I had sponsored. We went down to St. Louis where I had gone to college and went to mass at the St. Louis Basilica. If you have never been there it is an absolutely gorgeous church covered with amazing mosaics. A priest friend of mine was saying mass and after the mass we were talking with him at the after mass social. My friend loves the Eucharist (in fact he goes to daily mass and has logged every single Eucharist he has received and the intention he offered the mass for- it's cool looking through his log and seeing on such and such a date when it was intention offered for you!) Anyway Fr. asked my friend how he liked the mass. My friend said it was really nice, but if it had been a weekday mass in the basement of some rural parish it would have been just as awesome, because Jesus would have been present in the Eucharist. Fr. paused, gave a thoughtful look, and said "Nah, this is better."

Of course they are both right. Regardless of the "quality" of the mass or the rite, Jesus is fully present. That includes the 30 some rites in use by the Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches. For someone to claim a rite 'hurts" people is insane. On the other hand our response to the gift of Christ in the liturgy can be better or worse.

My main issue with the old rite is that it was give to us when the average parishioner was an illiterate European peasant. I've never felt that Jesus was particularly more present there, and I felt that my ability to respond to the love of God is absent. The new rite was given for a cosmopolitan Church. Yes, it is more adaptive. That's a good thing. St. Therese tells us that God loves the humble daisy as much as the noble rose, and the current liturgy reflects that. It can be celebrated in a way that speaks both to the daisy and the rose. Not only that, but a person who is a rose can appreciate the well done liturgy of the daisy and vice versa.

I have been to new churches which should be demolished. I have been to new churches that lift me to Heaven. I have heard contempory choirs that made me want to stuff my ears and contemporay choirs that moved my soul. I have heard traditional organ/Chant masses that made me want to stuff my ears and ones that moved my soul. One of the most moving masses I went to was at a predominantly African American parish in Denver. The music was gospel yet very Catholic and teh people incredibly warm and and Christ was so obviously present in not only the Eucharist but also the people. That was the mass you should have contrasted with the Tridentine Rite, and you would have found the same sense of mystery and yet I believe the sense of community even more visible.


amen, Matt
Nov 1st 2013 new
(quote) ED-20630 said: Bernard,

If you ever get to Sacramento, the newly renovated cathedral is a must-see. Below is a link to some photos. The photos don't really do it justice, but give you a good idea of how spectacular it is. I was originally built somewhere between the 1860s and 1880s. A $34 million renovation was completed in 2005. To numerous to count.... all of the stained glass widows, statues, paintings, murals, and the impressive architecture. It is actually much better than when originally constructed.... as they were able to incorporate new features that were apparently planned originally, but could not be included due to an originally more limited budget.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1027&bih=529&q=cathedral+of+the+blessed+sacrament+sacramento&oq=cathedral+of+the+blessed+sacrament+sacramento&gs_l=img.3..0l2j0i24l2.2653.18206.0.18623.31.14.1.15.15.0.469.1875.6j7j4-1.14.0....0...1ac.1.30.img..1.30.1992.F1gq2V_lP2Q

Ed
I agree Ed.She is a beauty. smile
Nov 1st 2013 new
Thank you for starting this thread. You have inspired me to attend traditional Latin Mass this weekend. smile
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