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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

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Nov 1st 2013 new
(quote) Gabor-19025 said: Division- there's plenty of it here so you don't have to travel far to find it.

Could anyone have scripted the Liturgical revolution of the 60's? A Freemason with 6 Protestant advisors being key players in replacing the Mass of 1,500 years? Would the NFL employ 6 baseball players to rewrite the rules of their sport? The supposed reason- to attract more Protestants to the Holy Mass. Instead the only key performance indicators that are rocking are priest-less parishes and annulments.

Conspiracy theory or some truth to it?
All true.It's in your face truth really.The evidenece is there for those who seek the Truth.
Nov 2nd 2013 new
Thanks for this thread. My mom goes to Traditional mass but I have not been to one myself yet but watched on online. Its hard to find near Philly unless you got to the actual city. At the Mother Katherine Drexel shrine and a few other chapels and churches the old altars have remained the same and I love to go there and see those Beautiful altars.........
Nov 2nd 2013 new
(quote) Gabor-19025 said: Division- there's plenty of it here so you don't have to travel far to find it.

Could anyone have scripted the Liturgical revolution of the 60's? A Freemason with 6 Protestant advisors being key players in replacing the Mass of 1,500 years? Would the NFL employ 6 baseball players to rewrite the rules of their sport? The supposed reason- to attract more Protestants to the Holy Mass. Instead the only key performance indicators that are rocking are priest-less parishes and annulments.

Conspiracy theory or some truth to it?
Pure unadulterated poppycock. The Cardinal was not a Mason. No Proterstants had any input into the development of the new Mass.

The Triderntine Mass was not and is not 1500 years old. Like the Novus, it has its origin in ancient forms. But Form itself is only 700 years old. But over those 700 years changes were made by many Popes.

Unfortunately, you blame something you dislike for the loss of Priests and religious. But the loss was a result of a cataclysmic change in the secular culture; a world wide phenomena virtually unseen in history.

The Church is a institution that exists in the world. It and the people in it, whether they be priests religious or laity are affected by the societies around it. That has been the case throughout history. Just as in the past, despite the negative affect on the visible Church, the Church still has not changed a single dogma or teaching anchored in Tradition.

In short, not a single word of truth in your brief but flawed summery.
Nov 2nd 2013 new
(quote) Gabor-19025 said: Matt, I am going to sign off with some statistics that I found:

In the USA:

Active Priests:
1965 - 58,000
2002 - 45,000

Ordinations:
1965 - 1,575
2002 - 450

Priestless Parishes:
1965 - 549 (about 1%)
2002 - 2,928 (about 15%)

Seminarians:
1965 - 49,000
2002 - 4,700

Sisters:
1965 - 180,000
2002 - 75,000

Brothers:
1965 - 12,000
2002 - 5,700

Jesuits:
1965 - 5,277
2002 - 3,172

Franciscans:
1965 - 2,534
2002 - 1,492

Christian Brothers:
1965 - 2,434
2002 - 959

Redemptorists:
1965 - 1,148
2002 - 349

Catholic High Schools:
1965 - 1,566
2002 - 786

Catholic High School Students:
1965 - 700,000
2002 - 386,000

Parochial Grade Schools:
1965 - 10,504
2002 - 6,623

Parochial Grade School Students:
1965 - 4.5 million
2002 - 1.9 million

Infant Baptisms:
1965 - 1.3 million
2002 - 1 million

Adult Baptisms (conversions):
1965 - 126,000
2002 - 80,000

Catholic Marriages:
1965 - 352,000
2002 - 256,000

Annulments:
1965 - 338
2002 - 50,000

Regular Mass Attendance - study #1:
1958 - 74% of Catholics (Gallup Pole)
1994 - 26.6% (Notre Dame study)

Regular Mass Attendance - Fordham University study:
1965 - 65% of Catholics
2000 - 25%

Misc. (source, National Catholic Reporter)
77% believe Catholics don't have to attend Mass on Sunday
65% believe Catholics can divorce and remarry
53% believe Catholics can have an abortion
10% accept the Church's teaching on birth control (source, Notre Dame poll)
70% believe the Eucharist is a "symbolic reminder" of Our Lord (New York Times poll)

(Source: Liturgical Time Bombs in Vatican II, by Michael Davies, TAN Books, copyright 2003)

The reason for this, mostly, is the incredibly poor catechesis that existed even prior to Vatican II. Well, that, and the illicit use of contraception. Which, again, is a result of poor catechesis.
Nov 2nd 2013 new
(quote) Gabor-19025 said: Division- there's plenty of it here so you don't have to travel far to find it.

Could anyone have scripted the Liturgical revolution of the 60's? A Freemason with 6 Protestant advisors being key players in replacing the Mass of 1,500 years? Would the NFL employ 6 baseball players to rewrite the rules of their sport? The supposed reason- to attract more Protestants to the Holy Mass. Instead the only key performance indicators that are rocking are priest-less parishes and annulments.

Conspiracy theory or some truth to it?
I really don't know how much truth there is to the alleged Masonic plots. I don't think the Church was infiltrated as such. Catholics tend to blame Protestants too much when it has been Catholic leaders themselves who have put the Church in dire straits, sometimes deliberately. Bad currents in the Church always have been around. At some points they wreak more havoc than at other times. There's an ideal Church of which the visible Church is only an approximation. I think the 60s saw a strong attempt to rip the ideal Church out of the Church and replace it with an irrational cult...to make truth seem unknowable and destroy hope in the future.

Nov 2nd 2013 new
(quote) ED-20630 said: There is almost always some element/kernel of truth to any conspiracy. That is what makes the rest of it so believable.... But 1-10% truth doesn't make the whole story true.

Ed
So what have you read about the liturgical movement? You and Paul bring up this ridiculous term "conspiracy theory" constantly. It's ridiculous.
Nov 2nd 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: Pure unadulterated poppycock. The Cardinal was not a Mason. No Proterstants had any input into the development of the new Mass.

The Triderntine Mass was not and is not 1500 years old. Like the Novus, it has its origin in ancient forms. But Form itself is only 700 years old. But over those 700 years changes were made by many Popes.

Unfortunately, you blame something you dislike for the loss of Priests and religious. But the loss was a result of a cataclysmic change in the secular culture; a world wide phenomena virtually unseen in history.

The Church is a institution that exists in the world. It and the people in it, whether they be priests religious or laity are affected by the societies around it. That has been the case throughout history. Just as in the past, despite the negative affect on the visible Church, the Church still has not changed a single dogma or teaching anchored in Tradition.

In short, not a single word of truth in your brief but flawed summery.
No Protestants had any input into the new Mass? How do you know that? Or is this the gospel according to Paul?

I think Catholics blame Protestants too often for Catholic problems...but to say Protestants had no influence whatsoever. Really?
Nov 2nd 2013 new
Exerpts from Michael Davies Book "It is the Mass Matters"

For 1500 years the rite of Mass developed in a natural and almost imperceptible manner,
with the addition of new prayers and ceremonies that gave ever clearer liturgical expression to its sacrificial nature, but always in conformity to the fundamental principle of fidelity to tradition. The sixteenth-century Protestants rejected the principle of fidelity to tradition in favor of the principle of the destruction of tradition.

The fact that the Mass of Pope Paul VI as it is celebrated in so many parishes today constitutes a breach with authentic liturgical development has been confirmed by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect for the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith:

J. A. Jungmann, one of the truly great liturgists of our time, defined the liturgy of his day, such as it could be understood in the light of historical research, as a "liturgy which is the fruit of development". What happened after the Council (Vatican ll) was something else entirely: in the place of the liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it, as in a manufacturing process, with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product. 13

Msgr. Klaus Gamber sums up the effect of the post-conciliar reform in one devastating sentence: "At this critical juncture, the traditional Roman rite, more than one thousand years old, has been destroyed." 14 The post Vatican II has brought no good fruits whatsoever-----only, as Msgr. Gamber puts it, "a liturgical destruction of startling proportions-----a debacle worsening with each passing year." 15
_
13. Preface to the French edition of The Reform of the Roman Liturgy by Msgr. Klaus Gamber .
14. The Reform of the Roman Liturgy (RRL), K. Gamber (Roman Catholic Books, P.O. Box 255, Harrison, N.Y. 10528, 1993), p.99.
15. RRL, p.9.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Various quotes


"We must admit it is a master blow of Protestantism to have declared war on the sacred language. If it should ever succeed in destroying it, it would be well on the way to victory. Exposed to profane gaze, like a virgin who has been violated, from that moment on the Liturgy has lost much of its sacred character, and very soon people find that it is not worthwhile putting aside one's work or pleasure in order to go and listen to what is being said in the way one speaks on the marketplace. . . ." -- Dom Prosper Gueranger, Liturgical Institutions, 1840

"It is now theologically possible for Protestants to use the same Mass as Catholics." -- Max Thurian, Protestant theologian, on the New Mass, 1969

"At this critical juncture, the traditional Roman rite, more than one thousand years old, has been destroyed." -- Msgr. Gamber, considered to be the greatest liturgist of the 20th c.

"Let those who like myself have known and sung a Latin-Gregorian High Mass remember it if they can. Let them compare it with the Mass that we now have. Not only the words, the melodies, and some of the gestures are different. To tell the truth, it is a different liturgy of the Mass. This needs to be said without ambiguity: the Roman Rite as we knew it no longer exists." -- Fr. Joseph Gelineau

Nov 2nd 2013 new
(quote) Sean-851370 said: So what have you read about the liturgical movement? You and Paul bring up this ridiculous term "conspiracy theory" constantly. It's ridiculous.
Sean,

I'll leave you with your conspiracies. Perhaps you could start your own "Church of Sean".... Your church will be perfect and unblemished... at least in your eyes. You can be your own pope too. When your "Church of Sean" has lasted 2000 years and is in as good of shape as the Catholic Church, then you may have something.

I wonder what you even get out of being Catholic? My impression is that you apparently see only/mostly scandal, conspiracy, evil, mis-direction, poor liturgy and poor leadership in the Catholic Church. I would think that you would become exhausted by all of the mess.... but my impression is that you thrive on it for some reason. Ever tally up how much of your life you spend chasing conspiracies in the Church, banking, industry, politics and everything else? What (of value) have you gained from it? Obviously you're getting something out of it or you would have found something better to do long ago.

Ed
Nov 2nd 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: Pure unadulterated poppycock. The Cardinal was not a Mason. No Proterstants had any input into the development of the new Mass.

The Triderntine Mass was not and is not 1500 years old. Like the Novus, it has its origin in ancient forms. But Form itself is only 700 years old. But over those 700 years changes were made by many Popes.

Unfortunately, you blame something you dislike for the loss of Priests and religious. But the loss was a result of a cataclysmic change in the secular culture; a world wide phenomena virtually unseen in history.

The Church is a institution that exists in the world. It and the people in it, whether they be priests religious or laity are affected by the societies around it. That has been the case throughout history. Just as in the past, despite the negative affect on the visible Church, the Church still has not changed a single dogma or teaching anchored in Tradition.

In short, not a single word of truth in your brief but flawed summery.
Paul,just give it up,and go back to the Traditional Latin Mass.You know it's better. wink
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