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Discussion related to living as a Catholic in the single state of life. As long as a topic is being discussed from the perspective of a single Catholic then it will be on-topic.

Tobias and Sarah's story is from the Book of Tobit, and his journey is guided by Saint Raphael.
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Oct 26th 2013 new
(quote) Kristen-878108 said:

I think the problem is not just that women are not recognized in the Church but that complementarity has been thrown out the door in the name of Marxist equality and sameness.


Hi Kristen,

Sorry, I'm having another unfortunate brainiac arrest here, but is androgyny being only induced by Marxist ideology?

There seems like streams of hyper-masculinity and hyper-femininity, as well as, androgyny are mass marketed in the USA. It is a complicated issue. Complementarity, it seems to me, if not originating in the Trinity, is at the very least grounded in nature. Some might suggest that social engineering, contraception, erosion of family values, a hyper materialism that coerces more work less children, etc., anything that wars against Holy Matrimony and 'Telos' (the natural ends -- unitive and procreative) of marriage might be causal factors. This is opening a can of worms, but someone in a Muslim country might even suggest complementarity will be compromised until Burkas come in fashion. wide eyed Praying

It is not readily apparent to me that Marxism has a monopoly on any of these maladies.

Just wanted to let you know you are not talking to yourself! biggrin
Oct 27th 2013 new
(quote) David-174079 said: Hi Kristen,

Sorry, I'm having another unfortunate brainiac arrest here, but is androgyny being only induced by Marxist ideology?

There seems like streams of hyper-masculinity and hyper-femininity, as well as, androgyny are mass marketed in the USA. It is a complicated issue. Complementarity, it seems to me, if not originating in the Trinity, is at the very least grounded in nature. Some might suggest that social engineering, contraception, erosion of family values, a hyper materialism that coerces more work less children, etc., anything that wars against Holy Matrimony and 'Telos' (the natural ends -- unitive and procreative) of marriage might be causal factors. This is opening a can of worms, but someone in a Muslim country might even suggest complementarity will be compromised until Burkas come in fashion.

It is not readily apparent to me that Marxism has a monopoly on any of these maladies.

Just wanted to let you know you are not talking to yourself!
Great point, David. I would certainly concur that Marxism does not hold the monopoly on dehumanization. My only point in making the distinction about "Marxist equality" was so as it would not be confused with "Biblical equality" as articulated in Genesis 1 and 2. Marxist equality is a convenient term because Marx very clearly defined his view of the human person as primarily a member of the state, even before belonging to a family. So persons were viewed as "comrades" rather than as a mother or father or woman or man. Marx's definition of equality is entirely political, social and economic. Biblical equality refers to the person before God and refers to their value, their dignity - that all persons are created in His image, and even man and woman are not the same, they are both equally created in the image of God, and have the same dignity before God:

God created mankind in his image;

in the image of God he created them;

male and female he created them. Genesis 1:27

So, yes I would agree that capitalism can be just as flawed in its regard for the human person. But as far as I know, I am not aware of a "Capitalist" philosopher who has provided such a clear definition of what/who the human is like Marx did. (unless you want to count Ayn Rand) And I would also add that I don't believe the American government is solely guided by the principles of capitalism, but is a complex mixture of free-market/Marxist equality/government regulation all rolled into one. Especially as our Supreme Court continues to reinterpret the Constitution according to "modern values" as opposed to the values of the Founders, I believe the complexity will continue to grow.

Oct 27th 2013 new
Hi Kristen. Actually, I was thinking of Ayn Rand and in a blurry way a class I had on De Tocqueville's book, Democracy in America by a devout Jewish Professor. "Telos", natural law vs. positivism, was like a mantra for my undergraduate conservative Christian friends and I, at the time at the state university, seemingly solving all that ails America.

This conversation takes us far afield. All I can say is I wish I had read the 20+ encyclicals and Compendium of the Social Teaching of the Catholic Church before being thrown into the Marxist vs. Capitalist cauldron. I have had to spend just as much time uprooting false premises and dichotomies as I have had to spend trying to plant trees of life. Short of a "born again" ideological virginity, a mystagogical approach to the eight beatitudes, a fresh appraisal of the 10 Commandments, the virtues, natural law, and works of mercy, I really do not see most conversations, without crystal clarity on these Catholic foundations, advancing the conversation very far. The basic principles of Catholic Social teaching, like subsidiarity, solidarity, personhood, family, common good, universal destination of goods are like oversized second hand clothes for me. I know how poorly I wear and employ them. Problem is, like every other impoverished area of the Catechism, I am not alone in this ideological and theological orphanage.
Oct 27th 2013 new
So...do you know any Social Teaching Sherpas? scratchchin
Oct 27th 2013 new
(quote) David-174079 said: So...do you know any Social Teaching Sherpas?
No, David, I am not acquainted with any such sherpas. wink
Oct 27th 2013 new
David...meet Kristen.....! heart
Oct 27th 2013 new
I'm rather taken aback by the blanket condemnation of bellydancers by association with the other spiritual deviants you mention. Belly dancing is neither a religion or philosophy, nor does it come with any social agenda. Looked at with an un-tainted mind, it is a remarkable discipline and a beautiful art form. Granted, it is associated with a less savory historical purpose, and can be exercised for purely erotic purpose, but as practiced today - especially by some of the masters, it is often as elegant as ballet. Actually some styles - even historically - do not include a revealing attire.

I know some relatively young (20-50 y/o) women who participate in bellydance typically wearing full-body leotards(?) under whatever 'traditional' adornments and garments they have made or acquired. I have also known 70-year-old, over-weight AND rail-thin women who many would consider unattractive or plain ugly - but to see them dance is remarkable - they take on a whole new presence and a very distinct beauty . I'd be astounded if any ballet school accepted an elder woman for serious training or practice. It is fantastic exercise requiring body awareness and balance, and it can be distinctly aerobic without being threatening to any aspect of a body in sufficient condition to walk upright... I also consider it distinctly feminine in that (IMHO) even the best of male dancers don't come close to the average female. It is likely the most inclusive physical pursuit for womens' participation - there is no too big/small/thick/thin/tall/short/etc.

Surely we must exorcise lust and prurience from our gazing, for even within the context of marriage, if you automatically view your unclothed spouse with lustful eyes, you do them injustice and disrespect.
Oct 27th 2013 new
Hi David,

I suppose, hypothetically, if there were also Ball Room dancing (Waltz, Foxtrot, Tango), Country Swing, Square dancing, even Ballet, advertised in my small town of 15,000, I might not even have raised an eyeybrow. The context of my obsevation was not condemnatory of this art form. (Though I'm sure you'll enjoy plenty of opposition on that front). Belly Dancing, whatever its respective merits, does not (1) involve couples' dancing together and (2) its prominence in the midst of a relative absence of other forms of dancing, furthers my thesis of a "sign of the times". In this case, a trend toward solipsism, individualism and narcissicism.

Oct 28th 2013 new
(quote) Suzanne-930338 said: David, I enjoy reading the ideas that you put forth and the comments that follow. When I think of women in general, and woman in particular the words "receptive creativity" come to mind. Some time ago I attended a women's retreat put on by the Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist, in Ann Arbor. One of the most profound ideas was expressed by Sister Joseph Andrew Bogdanowicz. I can't "quote" her but essentially she said that the "mystery" of woman is her abilty to "be receptive" and "to receive" what she is given and with Gods grace and blessing create (or allow to be created) something that is a reflection of His Love. It's in total cooperation with the Holy Spirit. Who better to model this than the Blessed Mother, the spiritual spouse of the Holy Spirit. This "creative receptivity" can be physical (resulting in an actual conception), spiritual (think of the spiritual maternity of religious women in their relationship with Christ), economic and even political (when a woman is engaged in the workforce or political arena in an ethical, moral and honest way.) Women scholars, mystics, teachers, and Church Doctors all exhibit these characteristics, to one degree or another. The current culture that has denigrated and separated us from our physical maternity with contraception, sterilization and abortion is only a mirror of the spiritual, emotional and psychological "chasm" of authentic womanhood. The same can be said for man and men when we separate them from their roles as protectors, providers, and leaders! Thanks for your post. I look forward to reading your comments.
'Receptive Creativity' You get a Gold Star! You get a Gold Star! You get a Gold Star! You get a Gold Star!

Throw a shiny new set of words together for me to chew on and I am like jeweler at a bling convention. biggrin

In his encyclical on Faith, Lumen Fidei, Pope Francis compared Mary to 'Good Soil', reminiscent of the bad soil Jesus speaks about that is crowded with thorns, rocks, and paths. Souls pure of these worldly concerns are able to receive the Word of God. Both the unitive and fruitful ends of marriage are implied by whoever coined this phrase.

One possible antonym of 'receptive creativity' might be 'rejecting reactivity' which is the exact negation of Life and Love. Not only abortion, sterilization, and contraception, but being spiritually closed to receiving Eternal life through God's grace and forgiveness.

Wow! Good stuff! Thank you! theheart
Oct 28th 2013 new
Really enjoyed reading this, thank you!
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