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A place to learn, mingle, and share

This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
Learn More: Saint Augustine

Nov 22nd 2013 new
(quote) Angela-374523 said: Michelle asked an honest question, seeking some clarification and information on the SSPX. Neither she, nor anyone else, asked to see a verbal punching contest full of inaccuracies and hyberbole. The Novus Ordo are not a group. The Novus Ordo is a Mass. If you have facts to refute something that another poster has posted, then present those facts, and present the sources from which you have drawn the facts. Name-calling and distortion is counterproductive.
here is my proof.. www.youtube.comI beg to differ.The way the Church operates in many Diocese and Parishes is contrary to the way Vatican ll and even the New Mass Ruberics were written.It operates as a Protestantized Church.Of course those are just the Chaff in the Church who have not been expelled,and they continue to operate their Charade
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Nov 22nd 2013 new
For those who wish to find out the official Vatican position on the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX), you can read press releases issued directly by the Vatican here: www.news.va. You can search for any search term in the search box in the upper right hand corner.
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Nov 22nd 2013 new
(quote) Tom-956451 said: Cardinal Burke would clearly disagree with you, my brother:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRcoaytPCa0

Let me be clear, I am not denying their dis-communion with Rome, that is no secret. But as to their future relationship, it takes a little digging, but one can find out exactly what has been done to improve it. And it is improving, slowly.

But I absolutely don't think anyone should be afraid of learning about them. Saying things like "stay away and have no knowledge" is just wrong. I guarantee you, most Novus Ordo American Catholics know more about multiple Protestant faiths than they do the SSPX.
That video is almost 18 months old -- regretfully, the movement since then does not appear to be in the direction of unity.

Either way, opinions about what might happen in the future, regardless of whose they are, matter not.

Until the status quo changes there is no need for most people to be "learning about" the SSPX. Those who nothing about them are far less likely to be drawn into pointless and often uncharitable debates about their status, to question the Church's position, or to decide to participate in liturgical activities that the Church has declared to be non-legitimate.

Our first parents have already shown us the damage done by eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Do we need to repeat their mistake?


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Nov 22nd 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: Using the word "cult" applied to any religious movement is a problematic thing.

Today the word has mostly negative connotations. But the Church itself often uses the word in very positive ways. For example, the Sacred vessels used in the celebration of the Mass are correctly referred to a Objects of cult.

Whoever used it in describing the SSPX obviously meant it to be derogatory. In the negative sense like that, I would think that the SSPX is not a cult.

It is, however, a movement with absolutely no canonical standing in the Church. Although it has not been formally pronounced as being in schism by the Church, it is, as the term is used in the language of diplomacy, a de facto schismatic organization. That is, that although they recognize the duly elected Pope as the Head of the Church, they do so only on their own terms, dissenting in some essential ways from the teachings and discipline of the Church.

The Vatican continues to negotiate with them to bring them into full Communion. But they appear to be pulling further and further away. Some parts of them, the FSSP, have actually returned. Other parts of it have split off and fallen into virtually heresy, the sede vacantis people.

In my opinion, Rome is wasting its time and should formally pronounce them in schism and wash their hands of them.


The catholic church broke away from the church of england
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Nov 22nd 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: Thank God you are not Pope! Lol! I mean really Paul,you have very little charity!There are thousands of souls at stake here.Do you even care about their salvation.The situation is complex.It's not even worth it to descend in to arguments with you.You clearly have no patience for anyone who disagrees with you.Yet the cult of the Novus Ordo and all of the Clergy who lead souls astray from the True teachings of the Catholic Faith! What about them? Oh ,no ,wait,they are in good standing with their Bishop! Talk about not in Communion with the Catholic Church! Spare me buddy!
Obviously they do not have as much of a concern for their souls as I do. If they did they would leave the SSPX and return to full communion with the Church forgetting all the nonsense thery spew about Vatican II, the constant carping and criticism of all the Popes since Pius XII, especially the gibberish they accuse Pope Francis of.

Even in the Church, the concept of "tough love" has a place. And when we have had a group like the SSPX, that has been in non-communion for so long, it is long past the time to invoke "tough love."

Contrary to your assertion, I have a lot of tolerance and patience for people who disagree with me if they have rational and valid reasons for doing so. I have no tolerance or patience for nonsense and irrationality.

Any clergy, of whatever rank, and anyone else that leads people away from the truth of the Church are already under indictment by Christ Himself.

Your attempt to use the derogatory sense of the word "cult" is laughable.

Sorry to inform you, although there have always been those in the Church leading people astray, the Church has not changed a single teaching of the Church. It still teachesx today what it has done for the last 2000 years. It is those who say it has, who are the "cultists" leadi8ng people astray.

And I am not your buddy.
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Nov 22nd 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: Obviously they do not have as much of a concern for their souls as I do. If they did they would leave the SSPX and return to full communion with the Church forgetting all the nonsense thery spew about Vatican II, the constant carping and criticism of all the Popes since Pius XII, especially the gibberish they accuse Pope Francis of.

Even in the Church, the concept of "tough love" has a place. And when we have had a group like the SSPX, that has been in non-communion for so long, it is long past the time to invoke "tough love."

Contrary to your assertion, I have a lot of tolerance and patience for people who disagree with me if they have rational and valid reasons for doing so. I have no tolerance or patience for nonsense and irrationality.

Any clergy, of whatever rank, and anyone else that leads people away from the truth of the Church are already under indictment by Christ Himself.

Your attempt to use the derogatory sense of the word "cult" is laughable.

Sorry to inform you, although there have always been those in the Church leading people astray, the Church has not changed a single teaching of the Church. It still teachesx today what it has done for the last 2000 years. It is those who say it has, who are the "cultists" leadi8ng people astray.

And I am not your buddy.
Vatican ll is not a Dogmatic Council and did not invoke the Holy Spirit therefore as A Dogmatic Council does.Of course the Church can never change one iota of Defined Dogma,or that which it has always and everywhere held and taught.The nonsense being served up in most Parishes in fact all the Church is mostly a warmed over Protestant way of worshiping and believing.There are few exceptions.I am not talking about what the Church officially believes and declares.
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Nov 22nd 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: here is my proof.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gPX7XEBdUQI beg to differ.The way the Church operates in many Diocese and Parishes is contrary to the way Vatican ll and even the New Mass Ruberics were written.It operates as a Protestantized Church.Of course those are just the Chaff in the Church who have not been expelled,and they continue to operate their Charade
The video is one person's opinion. There are numerous others with the same credentials who disagree.

Yes, there are some diocese and parishes that are doing things in a manner that is not in accord with the Church; however, to use that as justification to make a iniversal statement regarding those who are attached to the Novus Ordo Mass is as accurate as claiming that all who are attached to the traditional Mass are illegitimate based on the status of the SSPX.

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Nov 22nd 2013 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: The video is one person's opinion. There are numerous others with the same credentials who disagree.

Yes, there are some diocese and parishes that are doing things in a manner that is not in accord with the Church; however, to use that as justification to make a iniversal statement regarding those who are attached to the Novus Ordo Mass is as accurate as claiming that all who are attached to the traditional Mass are illegitimate based on the status of the SSPX.

He is a legitimate Canon Lawyer,who also has a Doctorate in Thomistic Theology.Not just a person as you state.
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Nov 22nd 2013 new
(quote) Angela-374523 said: For those who wish to find out the official Vatican position on the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX), you can read press releases issued directly by the Vatican here: http://www.news.va/en. You can search for any search term in the search box in the upper right hand corner.
The link below is to a 2009 letter from Pope Benedict to the Bishops of the Church explaining the status of the SSPX. As of this time no change to this status has been generally communicated.

tinyurl.com



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Nov 22nd 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: He is a legitimate Canon Lawyer,who also has a Doctorate in Thomistic Theology.Not just a person as you state.
And as I stated, many others with the same or greater qualifications hold a different opinion. While neither you nor I are not qualified to judge the merits of his position; the lack of support among his peers is telling.

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