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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
Learn More: Saint Augustine

Nov 22nd 2013 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: And as I stated, many others with the same or greater qualifications hold a different opinion. While neither you nor I are not qualified to judge the merits of his position; the lack of support among his peers is telling.

Saint Athanatius stood alone too.His peers were wrong! Including the Pope.
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Nov 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: Saint Athanatius stood alone too.His peers were wrong! Including the Pope.
I have seen no evidence the St. Athanasius took it upon himself to defy the authority of the Church and act outside the legitimate chain of authority, such as explicitly disobey an order an ordain bishops without approval, while he argued his case regarding the theological errors.


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Nov 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Tom-112790 said: The catholic church broke away from the church of england
That's an interesting claim. Care to provide some evidence to support it?

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Nov 23rd 2013 new
traditionalcatholic.net

Letter of Saint Athanasius to his flock:

May God console you! ... What saddens you ... is the fact that others have occupied the churches by violence, while during this time you are on the outside. It is a fact that they have the premises --- but you have the Apostolic Faith. They can occupy our churches, but they are outside the true Faith. You remain outside the places of worship, but the Faith dwells within you. Let us consider: what is more important, the place or the Faith? The true Faith, obviously. Who has lost and who has won in the struggle --- the one who keeps the premises or the one who keeps the Faith?

True, the premises are good when the Apostolic Faith is preached there; they are holy if everything takes place there in a holy way ...

You are the ones who are happy; you who remain within the Church by your Faith, who hold firmly to the foundations of the Faith which has come down to you from Apostolic Tradition. And if an execrable jealousy has tried to shake it on a number of occasions, it has not succeeded. They are the ones who have broken away from it in the present crisis.

No one, ever, will prevail against your Faith, beloved Brothers. And we believe that God will give us our churches back some day.

Thus, the more violently they try to occupy the places of worship, the more they separate themselves from the Church. They claim that they represent the Church; but in reality, they are the ones who are expelling themselves from it and going astray.

Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.

(Coll. selecta SS. Eccl. Patrum, Caillau and Guillou, Vol. 32, pp. 411-412)

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Nov 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: That's an interesting claim. Care to provide some evidence to support it?

I heard that on a Monty python show in the 70s.And as we know their credentials are impeccable.
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Nov 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: They are not in de facto Schism Paul.Last time I checked you were not made Pope.
Do you know what "de facto" means? Do you know what "schism" means.

Let me help. According to Webster: 1) schism is a division or separation; 2.Specifically Eccl. formal division or separation in the Christian Church also, the offense of seeking to produce division in a church; 3.a schismatic body or function.

de facto from the Latin for actually; in fact;; in reality --; distinguished from de jure (by law, legally often used attributively.

So the facts is that through the continued act of disobedience the SSPX has in reality separated itself from the Church. It continues to illicitly perform the liturgy and the Sacraments fuirther demonstarting their disobedience and separation from the Church.

Furthermore, they continue to insist the Novus Ordo is illicit. They deny the right of the Pope to require the use of the Novus
Therefore they are, in reality, committing the offense of seeking to produce division in the Church.

Hence they are in de facto schism.

To date the Church has not legally declared them in schism hence they are not de jure schism.

The de facto schism results from their actions, not my saying so.
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Nov 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: I have seen no evidence the St. Athanasius took it upon himself to defy the authority of the Church and act outside the legitimate chain of authority, such as explicitly disobey an order an ordain bishops without approval, while he argued his case regarding the theological errors.


www.olrl.org

Saint Athanasius lived in the fourth century during the time of what used to be considered the greatest crisis of faith ever to befall the Catholic Church, the Arian Heresy. (The Arians denied the Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ). The vast majority of Churchmen fell into this heresy, so much so that Saint Jerome wrote of the period, "The whole world groaned and was amazed to find itself Arian". Athanasius was the Bishop of Alexandria in Egypt for 46 years. He was banned from his diocese at least five times and spent a total of 17 years in exile. He even suffered an unjust excommunication from Pope Liberius (325-366) who was under Arian influence. It is a cold fact of history that Athanasius stood virtually alone against the onslaught of heretical teaching ravaging the Church of his day begetting the familiar phrase, "Athanasius contra mundum", that is, "Athanasius against the world".

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Nov 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: http://traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Information/Letter_to_his_Flock.html

Letter of Saint Athanasius to his flock:

May God console you! ... What saddens you ... is the fact that others have occupied the churches by violence, while during this time you are on the outside. It is a fact that they have the premises --- but you have the Apostolic Faith. They can occupy our churches, but they are outside the true Faith. You remain outside the places of worship, but the Faith dwells within you. Let us consider: what is more important, the place or the Faith? The true Faith, obviously. Who has lost and who has won in the struggle --- the one who keeps the premises or the one who keeps the Faith?

True, the premises are good when the Apostolic Faith is preached there; they are holy if everything takes place there in a holy way ...

You are the ones who are happy; you who remain within the Church by your Faith, who hold firmly to the foundations of the Faith which has come down to you from Apostolic Tradition. And if an execrable jealousy has tried to shake it on a number of occasions, it has not succeeded. They are the ones who have broken away from it in the present crisis.

No one, ever, will prevail against your Faith, beloved Brothers. And we believe that God will give us our churches back some day.

Thus, the more violently they try to occupy the places of worship, the more they separate themselves from the Church. They claim that they represent the Church; but in reality, they are the ones who are expelling themselves from it and going astray.

Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.

(Coll. selecta SS. Eccl. Patrum, Caillau and Guillou, Vol. 32, pp. 411-412)

Bernard..Just to get this clear.
Do you believe that most catholic churches today have an invalid mass??--or if not what are they doing that is seriously wrong?
Do you believe that confessions in most catholic churches are valid??
Im confused about what you think the status of the majority of the churches is.
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Nov 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: http://www.olrl.org/snt_docs/athnasus.shtml

Saint Athanasius lived in the fourth century during the time of what used to be considered the greatest crisis of faith ever to befall the Catholic Church, the Arian Heresy. (The Arians denied the Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ). The vast majority of Churchmen fell into this heresy, so much so that Saint Jerome wrote of the period, "The whole world groaned and was amazed to find itself Arian". Athanasius was the Bishop of Alexandria in Egypt for 46 years. He was banned from his diocese at least five times and spent a total of 17 years in exile. He even suffered an unjust excommunication from Pope Liberius (325-366) who was under Arian influence. It is a cold fact of history that Athanasius stood virtually alone against the onslaught of heretical teaching ravaging the Church of his day begetting the familiar phrase, "Athanasius contra mundum", that is, "Athanasius against the world".

so u think todays churches are teaching anything so anti-catholic as denying the divinty of Jesus?
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Nov 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: Do you know what "de facto" means? Do you know what "schism" means.

Let me help. According to Webster: 1) schism is a division or separation; 2.Specifically Eccl. formal division or separation in the Christian Church also, the offense of seeking to produce division in a church; 3.a schismatic body or function.

de facto from the Latin for actually; in fact;; in reality --; distinguished from de jure (by law, legally often used attributively.

So the facts is that through the continued act of disobedience the SSPX has in reality separated itself from the Church. It continues to illicitly perform the liturgy and the Sacraments fuirther demonstarting their disobedience and separation from the Church.

Furthermore, they continue to insist the Novus Ordo is illicit. They deny the right of the Pope to require the use of the Novus
Therefore they are, in reality, committing the offense of seeking to produce division in the Church.

Hence they are in de facto schism.

To date the Church has not legally declared them in schism hence they are not de jure schism.

The de facto schism results from their actions, not my saying so.
You are the one who needs to be schooled in what Schism is Sir.Take a lesson from A Canon Lawyer wink www.youtube.com
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