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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

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Nov 22nd 2013 new
(quote) ED-20630 said: I would say "nonsense" to that too (as did Paul). Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof... not just conspiracy theories.

Ed
www.catholicapologetics.infoAnnibale Bugnini
The main author of the Novus Ordo

We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren that is for the Prostestants. - Archbishop Annibale Bugnini, main author of the New Mass, L'Osservatore Romano, March 19, 1965

Nov 22nd 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/bugnini.htmlAnnibale Bugnini
The main author of the Novus Ordo

We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren that is for the Prostestants. - Archbishop Annibale Bugnini, main author of the New Mass, L'Osservatore Romano, March 19, 1965

www.catholicapologetics.info

Liturgy Destroyed

The liturgical heritage of the Roman Rite may well be the most precious treasure of our entire Western civilisation, something to be cherished and preserved for future generations. The Liturgy Constitution of the Second Vatican Council stated that: "In faithful obedience to tradition, the sacred Council declares that Holy Mother Church holds all lawfully recognised rites to be of equal right and dignity, that she wishes to preserve them in future and foster them in every way."

How has this command of the Council been obeyed? The answer can be obtained from Father Joseph Gelineau SJ, a Council peritus, and an enthusiastic proponent of the postconciliar revolution. In his book Demain la liturgie, he stated with commendable honesty, concerning the Mass as most Catholics know it today: "To tell the truth it is a different liturgy of the Mass. This needs to be said without ambiguity: the Roman Rite as we knew it no longer exists. It has been destroyed." Even Archbishop Bugnini would have found it difficult to explain how something can be preserved and fostered by destroying it.
Nov 22nd 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/bugnini.html

Liturgy Destroyed

The liturgical heritage of the Roman Rite may well be the most precious treasure of our entire Western civilisation, something to be cherished and preserved for future generations. The Liturgy Constitution of the Second Vatican Council stated that: "In faithful obedience to tradition, the sacred Council declares that Holy Mother Church holds all lawfully recognised rites to be of equal right and dignity, that she wishes to preserve them in future and foster them in every way."

How has this command of the Council been obeyed? The answer can be obtained from Father Joseph Gelineau SJ, a Council peritus, and an enthusiastic proponent of the postconciliar revolution. In his book Demain la liturgie, he stated with commendable honesty, concerning the Mass as most Catholics know it today: "To tell the truth it is a different liturgy of the Mass. This needs to be said without ambiguity: the Roman Rite as we knew it no longer exists. It has been destroyed." Even Archbishop Bugnini would have found it difficult to explain how something can be preserved and fostered by destroying it.
It is too bad your knowledge of the liturgy including its history is so lacking in content.
Nov 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: It is too bad your knowledge of the liturgy including its history is so lacking in content.
That was copied and pasted from the link I provided by Michael Davies.
Nov 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/bugnini.htmlAnnibale Bugnini
The main author of the Novus Ordo

We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren that is for the Prostestants. - Archbishop Annibale Bugnini, main author of the New Mass, L'Osservatore Romano, March 19, 1965

Bernard,

I find that you have a long-standing habit of often referencing sources that are questionable in that they are often not supported by, or contrary to documents and teachings of the Magisterium... and are often antagonistic towards the Vatican and/or Magisterium. Because of this, it is difficult or somewhat impossible to judge the validity of many of your references.

Show me something produced by the Vatican, Magisterium, EWTN or some other reliable and well-known source supporting your position and I will give it worthy merit. (The Rorate web site would not qualify as a sound reference either.) I have no way of evaluating this obscure source which you have reference here. It is kind of like crying wolf too often, when there is no wolf. The danger is that few will pay attention when/if eventually the cry is genuine.... Such is the case here.

Just my thoughts.

Ed
Nov 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/bugnini.htmlAnnibale Bugnini
The main author of the Novus Ordo

We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren that is for the Prostestants. - Archbishop Annibale Bugnini, main author of the New Mass, L'Osservatore Romano, March 19, 1965

Bernard,

As I suspected, the "catholic apologetics" site that you referenced is another of those typical sites that you often reference that whine and complain about many things post Vatican-II, including the popes, and has very little good to say about anything related to EWTN. I just had a look at all the other topics and positions on their site. While they have some truth in it, it is so mixed up all kinds of stuff that is contrary to what comes forth from the Magesterium, Vatican and our popes that it becomes practically useless and dangerous to rely upon.

Once again, you appear to be crying wolf.... with no wolf in sight. Give a credible reference please.

Ed
Nov 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: I don't know what excuses were used to justify their removal, but there is nothing in the Vatican II documents that calls for them to be removed. Or for distrivution of Holy Communion standing and in the hand, for that matter.

You are quite correct, but those infected with the "spirit of Vatican II," which our Pope emeritus labeled "the virtual council" ( www.catholicworldreport.com ) did these acts in accordance with their own desires.

Yet, when people talk about VII, they speak of things like this as the effects along with female altar servers, which was a later indult, and the "people's altar", which was a Modernist innovation that could be seen before VII.



Nov 23rd 2013 new
(quote) ED-20630 said: I would say "nonsense" to that too (as did Paul). Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof... not just conspiracy theories.

Ed
In that case, let us present some evidence:

eponymousflower.blogspot.com

Included are some Masonic altars. Notice the similarities?

Nov 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: In that case, let us present some evidence:

http://eponymousflower.blogspot.com/2013/11/versus-populum-new-church-is-directed.html

Included are some Masonic altars. Notice the similarities?

REALLY!???

Consider the source of your link, when you read the disrespectful language presented in this article. Anyone can make up an argument against the new order if they work hard enough.

I myself was raised with the TLM, but when the new order was implemented I saw the Holy Mass brought to us, the people, in our own language as it should be. We are able to more fully participate because we understand more fully what is being said. During the time of the Traditional order, I would see people reciting the Rosary instead of paying attention to the priest.

When the priest is facing us, during the consecration I see the body and blood of Christ being presented to us by Christ's representative here on earth. And as I lift my gaze higher I see the crucifix behind him completing the Holy Vision of Christ giving of himself to us.

If you don't see that in the new order of the Mass, then you are not there to participate in Jesus' most precious gift to us. You are there to criticize and build up your self-appointed righteousness as the Pharisees did in Jesus' time.

In reference to whether we should kneel and cover our hands under a "table cloth" or stand and receive in our hands: Please explain to me how the DISCIPLES received their First Eucharist from Jesus' own hands!
Nov 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Joanne-846477 said: REALLY!???

Consider the source of your link, when you read the disrespectful language presented in this article. Anyone can make up an argument against the new order if they work hard enough.

I myself was raised with the TLM, but when the new order was implemented I saw the Holy Mass brought to us, the people, in our own language as it should be. We are able to more fully participate because we understand more fully what is being said. During the time of the Traditional order, I would see people reciting the Rosary instead of paying attention to the priest.

When the priest is facing us, during the consecration I see the body and blood of Christ being presented to us by Christ's representative here on earth. And as I lift my gaze higher I see the crucifix behind him completing the Holy Vision of Christ giving of himself to us.

If you don't see that in the new order of the Mass, then you are not there to participate in Jesus' most precious gift to us. You are there to criticize and build up your self-appointed righteousness as the Pharisees did in Jesus' time.

In reference to whether we should kneel and cover our hands under a "table cloth" or stand and receive in our hands: Please explain to me how the DISCIPLES received their First Eucharist from Jesus' own hands!
> During the time of the Traditional order, I would see people reciting the Rosary instead of paying attention to the priest.

And now people doze off, talk to each other, file their nails, etc. Is this an improvement?

There are a variety of weaknesses in the "people don't understand what the priest is saying" argument. First, there are missals, which have the Latin and vernacular side-by-side. Many people find this actually increases their mental participation by requiring more attention than simply listening to words that ine quickly memorizes, which can lead to "zoning out."

With the exception of the readings, which were most often done in both Latin and the vernacular (at least on Sundays and holy days), most of the Mass is the same every time: people can reflect on the meaning of the Mass without following along word-by-word -- yes, even when praying the rosary. Granted, this is not the optimal way to pray the Mass, but it can be very effective for some people.

That said, admittedly there were many people who did not particularly pay attention when the Mass was in Latin. Just as there are many people who don't pay attention to the Mass in the vernacular. The correct way to fix this problem is by education, not to strip much of the sacred from the Mass and turn the focus from God, where it belongs, to the people. Sure, people may like it and it may make them feel good -- but feeling good is not the purpose of the Mass: the reception hall after Mass is a more appropriate place for that.

Every part of the traditional form of the Mass, especially those people complain about the most, have very specific meanings. Unfortunately, prior to Vatican II there were few resources avaiable for the laity to explore the significance of the Holy Mass in depth. Today, there is much material available to help us in this regard.

For those who remember the traditional Mass and didn't understand it, or felt it wasn't as relevant to them as the new Mass, I encourage you to watch the video linked to below. It is a bit long (40 minutes), but it does an excellent job of explaining the spiritual significant of the acts of the liturgy. Much of it can be applied to the new Mass as well, and it will help most people develop a deeper understanding of either form of the liturgy.

youtu.be


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