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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

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Nov 23rd 2013 new
Following are the recollections of several Novus Ordo priests after celebrating the traditional form of the Mass for the first time. These may provide some insight into the differences between the two form of the liturgy from the perspective of those most intimately acquainted with them:

reginamag.com
tinyurl.com
tinyurl.com




Nov 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: In that case, let us present some evidence:

http://eponymousflower.blogspot.com/2013/11/versus-populum-new-church-is-directed.html

Included are some Masonic altars. Notice the similarities?

I don't know what a bunch of photos of masonic altars is supposed provide as "evidence".

Perhaps the low altar used for the Novus Ordo Mass more accurately represents the table at the Lord's Last Supper.... and perhaps the Masons were trying to copy the look of the table used at the Last Supper. scratchchin scratchchin I don't know why you would assume that the Catholics were trying to copy the Masons. Perhaps more likely, the Masons were trying to copy the "last supper table".... or maybe the Masons were copying Abraham's altar on which he intended to sacrifice his son.... or maybe the Masons started out with a simple "card table" with folding legs and it morphed into something resembling an altar. Who knows?

Your "evidence" seems to lack much.

If you want to provide some credible evidence of this, why not provide some Vatican or Magisterial document that actually explains the change (from using high altar to low altar). Incidentally, in the very early Catholic church (say 100-250 AD), I doubt that that there were many "high altars" being used during Mass, especially when Mass was celebrated in the homes of Christians. I suspect that they utilized a proper sturdy table (part of the furniture of the home), draped with an appropriate table/altar cloth and the priest likely faced the people. Were those early Catholics copying the Masons too? scratchchin scratchchin scratchchin That seems quite impossible to me... especially since Masonry apparently originated (officially) around 1717. en.wikipedia.org

Ed
Nov 23rd 2013 new
Steven,

Incidentally, why do you cite (as "evidence") a web site (see below) that gives absolutely no information about it's creators, it's site owners and absolutely no real way to contact them, no phone number, no physical address.... nothing.... except a very anonymous email address "vekron99@hotmail.com". Are these site owners intentionally trying to hide their identity. It certainly appears that way to me.

eponymousflower.blogspot.com

If you are going to present credible "evidence" in the future, don't you think it would be a good idea to let us CM readers know whom your "source" of information is? I do.... Or do you usually just accept as fact or "evidence" anything that you happen to find on the web that happens to support your point of view. That seem quite weak to me.

Ed
Nov 24th 2013 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said:
With the exception of the readings, which were most often done in both Latin and the vernacular (at least on Sundays and holy days), most of the Mass is the same every time: people can reflect on the meaning of the Mass without following along word-by-word -- yes, even when praying the rosary. Granted, this is not the optimal way to pray the Mass, but it can be very effective for some people.

Every part of the traditional form of the Mass, especially those people complain about the most, have very specific meanings. Unfortunately, prior to Vatican II there were few resources avaiable for the laity to explore the significance of the Holy Mass in depth. Today, there is much material available to help us in this regard.




Having grown up with the extraordinary Form and attending and/or serving literal multiple thousands of them, never once either low week day masses or Solemn High Sunday Masses, not one Mass during my seminary years were the readings ever done in both Latin and the Vernacular.

In the Low week day Masses the readings were done in Latin in silence by the priest.

At all Sunday Masses the readings were rendered only in the vernacular in the pulpit.

Your comment that prior to Vatican II there were few resources available for the laity to explore the significance of the Holy Mass is depth is also erroneous. Although true that they were not handy like the internet, nevertheless there were books, pamphlets and movies available. The more frequent uses of missions, novenas and other public religious exercises in the parishes also served, in many instances, to explain and explore the Mass. And those things were attended by multitudes.
Nov 24th 2013 new
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com

Basket case:
The craze for strange new altars and "youth churches"

Nov 24th 2013 new
A beautiful altar rail. veneremurcernui.files.wordpress.com
Nov 25th 2013 new
(quote) Joanne-846477 said:

 When the priest is facing us, during the consecration I see the body and blood of Christ being presented to us by Christ's representative here on earth. And as I lift my gaze higher I see the crucifix behind him completing the Holy Vision of Christ giving of himself to us.

When I first attended the TLM, interestingly enough the profound and sacred sacrifice on Calvary is what impacted me the most and I see it at every Mass very visibly without the priest facing me.

www.youtube.com

Nov 25th 2013 new
(quote) Gabor-19025 said: When I first attended the TLM, interestingly enough the profound and sacred sacrifice on Calvary is what impacted me the most and I see it at every Mass very visibly without the priest facing me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLHuJASD6Ng

Does your experience in any way diminish Joanne's experience? Does your experience somehow invalidate hers?
Nov 25th 2013 new
A great quote from an article posted by Jerry above from a priest in respect of his first TLM:


"And so I started the Canon. I cannot write this except with great emotion, for the moment is so etched into my memory. I came to the consecration and said those words that are at the very heart of Catholic faith and worship. It was then, during the
Unde et memores, that suddenly, while saying the words silently, that I realized in a flash of insight, that this was what was missing, this is what I was meant to do as a Catholic priest, this is what joined me to the Tradition of the Church."
Nov 25th 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: Does your experience in any way diminish Joanne's experience? Does your experience somehow invalidate hers?
I do not believe I made any such comment? The point I was clearly making was that the Eucharist is not somehow hidden or obscured by the priest in the TLM. If anything, to the contrary, the focus is very firmly on the Eucharist. and not the priest.
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