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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Nov 21st 2013 new
I agree Angela. This Holy Father has NOT been given enough of a chance. To me...his time in office is only 5 minutes. It takes time. The fact that something seemingly is lost in translation does not mean he should be criticized....or Heaven help us...something taken out of context. I do not believe 115 (I guess that is the number) of voting Cardinals could be wrong. Besides are they not REQUIRED to pray to the Holy Spirit for there to be guidance in their choices? Now I'm not as intelligent as the rest of you....nor articulate as well as you...but I submit this: If you were to line up ALL 115 Cardinals or so....and PICK a POPE so to speak....YOUR SELECTION...do you think EVERYONE will agree. NO. He will be scrutinized as well. All I'm saying is...give the new "Vicar of Christ" a chance. Just today....I read he is starting to WIN people over. He has my vote
Nov 21st 2013 new
I don't like ambiguity either but this Pope doesn't speak English (something the Holy Spirit obviously knew and may have factored into its decision to inspire the cardinals to elect him).

Each language has its own ways of communicating and dramatising meaning because each language is a product of its own culture. You can't speak Spanish like an Englishman. To be fluent in Spanish, you really need to be able to express it with a Spanish brain, so to speak, using Spanish idiom. What can 'mess' figuratively and colloquially mean in Spanish? I don't know. Now, if you can find an English translation of a Spanish website criticising the pope for wanting 'mess' and 'trouble in the dioceses', that would be a different thing, but perhaps not. After all, native Spanish-speakers are just as susceptible to being Monday morning quarterbacks as native English-speakers, except that unlike the Monday morning quarterbacks who know how the game ended, we don't know how this game will end.
Nov 21st 2013 new
(quote) Gabor-19025 said:

I cannot understand why the Holy Father wants the Church to be a mess? He needs to choose his words a little more carefully.
Hi, Gabor. I was curious to get the original Spanish version of the Pope's comment and went to youtube where I listened to the speech he made to the youth of Argentina. Spanish can often be difficult to translate as it is full of beautiful nuances. I am a huge fan of Spanish poetry and find myself more often than not extremely disappointed when I happen to read an English translation of a Spanish poem. I did not take his use of the word "lio" to mean he wants the youth to go out and make a mess. He asked the youth to go out and fight for our values and also went on to say that they should not dilute the faith. I'm not sure I heard anything in his speech that might be misinterpreted. Hope this helps.
Nov 21st 2013 new
(quote) Ana-1009178 said: Hi, Gabor. I was curious to get the original Spanish version of the Pope's comment and went to youtube where I listened to the speech he made to the youth of Argentina. Spanish can often be difficult to translate as it is full of beautiful nuances. I am a huge fan of Spanish poetry and find myself more often than not extremely disappointed when I happen to read an English translation of a Spanish poem. I did not take his use of the word "lio" to mean he wants the youth to go out and make a mess. He asked the youth to go out and fight for our values and also went on to say that they should not dilute the faith. I'm not sure I heard anything in his speech that might be misinterpreted. Hope this helps.
Ana,

I am very pleased if that is the case. I do understand issues with translations as I have lived in non-English speaking countries myself and come across poor translations.
Nov 22nd 2013 new
(quote) Roystan-340472 said: The Church is indefectible. But is the election of a pope indefectible?

Is a pope chosen by the will of the cardinals, or by the will of the cardinals as influenced by the Holy Spirit, as the text of the Bible was produced not merely out of the wills of its respective writers but out of their wills as influenced by the Holy Spirit?

Isn't the Holy Spirit in its activities concerning the Church the identical process of Christ never abandoning his Church?

Was the election of Pope Francis a mistake? Was the election of John Paul I a mistake? Why have a pope who only serves 30 days? Perhaps critics ought to presume first that when a pope does something which they find difficult to understand, the gap lies between them and the pope, ie., between them and the Spirit who always does things that are true. The gap is not necessarily between the pope and the Spirit of Truth. The presumption may be relaxed and overturned in the passage of time but to query the pope five minutes after he has done something seems to be jumping the gun.

The hard-won democratic right to criticise your president, governor, senator, congressman, supreme court justice, etc. etc. five minutes after he or she has said or done something is sustained by the assurance that nothing they do is explicitly, or by prudent assumption, infallible or possibly so. Secular political philosophy does not contain anything about infallibility or indefectibility. The will of the majority prevails, but the majority extends concessions to the opinions of the minority because that's the only way to make things work in the long run. Otherwise, there will be civil war. Religious philosophy is different. Catholic religious philosophy explicitly allows for infallibility and indefectibility and for a state of self-excommunication if you refuse to honour either.

So you or I don't understand what Francis is saying? All that means is that we don't understand. It doesn't mean he's wrong. For that, we have to wait and see. It might be helpful to realise that what we hear him say and what the people whom he is trying to reach hear him say may be quite different things, and the more important of the two, for the moment, anyway, is the latter. We want them to like what they hear him say because why would they move towards him otherwise?










This is an exaggerated view of the story.Nowhere is the author claiming that the Church is not indefectible,or that the Pope is not infallible (when teaching all of the faithful on matters of faith and morals).
Nov 22nd 2013 new


Pope personally calls Traditional Catholic writer, says he considers it important to be criticized.

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com
Nov 22nd 2013 new
I can tell no one read the whole article. faint
Nov 22nd 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: I can tell no one read the whole article.
The article does not support your contentions.
Nov 22nd 2013 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: True. But it is not always the teacher's fault the instruction is ineffective: sometimes some of the students simply don't want to learn.

There are some who appear to be looking for any excuse to criticize him and if they truly don't understand it is often for lack of making even the slightest effort.

Sadly, some who see themselves as traditionalists are in some ways just as, if not more, modernist than those they criticize.

Thank you Jerry for your answer, it is apparent that this is the case with some individuals. As we all should remember criticizing the Pope or any priest without grave reason is a "sacrilege" and needs to be confessed as such.
Nov 22nd 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: The article does not support your contentions.
laughing What contention.Everything I posted was copied from the article. boggled
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