Faith Focused Dating. Create your Free Profile and meet your Match! Sign Up for Free
A place to learn, mingle, and share

This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
Learn More:Saint Athanasius

Nov 22nd 2013 new
(quote) Kristin-926543 said: Thank you Jerry for your answer, it is apparent that this is the case with some individuals. As we all should remember criticizing the Pope or any priest without grave reason is a "sacrilege" and needs to be confessed as such.

Pope personally calls Traditional Catholic writer, says he considers it important to be criticized.

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com
Nov 22nd 2013 new
"The Pope almost did not let me finish the sentence, saying that he had understood that those criticisms had been made with love, and how important it had been for him to receive them."

A great gesture by the Pope and one filled with hope.
Nov 22nd 2013 new
(quote) Gabor-19025 said: "The Pope almost did not let me finish the sentence, saying that he had understood that those criticisms had been made with love, and how important it had been for him to receive them."

A great gesture by the Pope and one filled with hope.
Even the Pope understands that Traditional Catholics love the Pope ,the Mass,and the Church.
Nov 22nd 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: Excerpts .Full story here http://www.newoxfordreview.org/note.jsp?did=1113-notes-pope
var globalCopyrightNotice = "2013 New Oxford Review. All Rights Reserved. November 2013, Volume LXXX, Number 9."
The Poor Misunderstood Pope?
(New Oxford Review Nov.2013)


"So, has Pope Francis been misunderstood? In order to answer this question, we have to be able to answer a more fundamental question: What is the Pope saying? The answer to which is: We dont know. Even worse, at this point: We cant know. But it is significant that Pope Francis is saying many ambiguous things with a lot of heartfelt emotion. This Pope evidently does not see it as his role to be clear, to teach the truth in a way that all can understand by a simple appraisal of his message. The irony is that he uses many words to say very little. Because his words are consistently unclear, they are by that fact empty rhetoric. The Pope seems to think that he ought to be a rhetorician more than a teacher. How sad! One could argue that a teacher may employ rhetoric, but only in service of the truth. When the truth itself becomes obscured, then the teacher is no longer doing his duty well. If a teacher purposely obscures the truth, he is abandoning his duty."

"Franciss words tell us that he is no Benedict XVI, no John Paul II. There have often been popes who changed the direction or emphasis of their predecessors: Leo XIII did not issue any syllabus of errors, in contrast to Pius IX before him and Pius X after him, and he was generally more open to the world in a positive way. But there were no morally or doctrinally ambiguous statements coming from the mouth of Leo XIII. He did not implicitly correct the example and teachings of the holy Pope he succeeded. He emphasized different truths than his immediate predecessor but, like him, he taught the truth clearly."

"Pope Francis must keep close track of his change of emphasis. He risks acting the part of the parish priest who uses vacuous platitudes and grand gestures in an attempt to win over disgruntled, immoral, heretical parishioners. The recent history of the post-Vatican II Church shows that this strategy never works. Time and again we have witnessed that churches do not fill up when doctrine is watered down; eventually the church empties, perhaps to be abandoned entirely. If Pope Francis does not perceive this, then there will be many more sorrows that the Church will have to endure. But if he does know this, and he persists in his ambiguity nonetheless, the sorrows will be even greater."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eventually people get tired of authoritarianism. My authoritarian and quick manner of making decisions [as a Jesuit superior] led me to have serious problems and to be accused of being ultraconservative. But I have never been a right-winger.
Pope Francis on his experience in Church government (America, Sept. 30)


Posted by: MGRagan
November 20, 2013 07:15 AM EST

In my opinion, this is a superb analysis of what Pope Francis has said and done thus far. I agree that it is damaging to the faithful and the Church in general.
Pope Francis thinks like most liberals do. But Jesus wasn't a liberal. He loved the poor and He healed the sick but He reserved His harshest words for those who say one thing and do another and give scandal to the innocent. The hierarchy is full of people like that. Catholic politics is full of people like that, including a powerful gay lobby that is wreaking havoc with the culture. But according to the pope, we are not to judge. Jesus did. He spoke of fire and brimstone and millstones for those who act this way. I thought the Holy Father was His voice here on earth. Apparently not. And this is not new. Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul II certainly were not as ambiguous as this pope, but they too did little or nothing to stem the flow of Catholics leaving the Church or to discipline the clergy who were consistently giving grave scandal or covering it up. In many instances, members of the hierarchy were rewarded for their evil deeds. The Church has been in big trouble for a long time.
Christ promised He would never abandon His Church. Faithful Catholics must cling to that for now. In the end, He will triumph.



Yes, Pope Francis' choice of phrasing reminds me of the way another man used language - and He was quite the stumbing block for many. Not the clarity of the Sadducees and Pharisees at all:

Luke 12:49 I have come to set the earth on fire, and how I wish it were already blazing! 50 *There is a baptism with which I must be baptized, and how great is my anguish until it is accomplished! 51 Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth?v No, I tell you, but rather division.w 52 From now on a household of five will be divided, three against two and two against three; 53 a father will be divided against his son and a son against his father, a mother against her daughter and a daughter against her mother, a mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
Nov 22nd 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: Excerpts .Full story here http://www.newoxfordreview.org/note.jsp?did=1113-notes-pope
var globalCopyrightNotice = "2013 New Oxford Review. All Rights Reserved. November 2013, Volume LXXX, Number 9."
The Poor Misunderstood Pope?
(New Oxford Review Nov.2013)


"So, has Pope Francis been misunderstood? In order to answer this question, we have to be able to answer a more fundamental question: What is the Pope saying? The answer to which is: We dont know. Even worse, at this point: We cant know. But it is significant that Pope Francis is saying many ambiguous things with a lot of heartfelt emotion. This Pope evidently does not see it as his role to be clear, to teach the truth in a way that all can understand by a simple appraisal of his message. The irony is that he uses many words to say very little. Because his words are consistently unclear, they are by that fact empty rhetoric. The Pope seems to think that he ought to be a rhetorician more than a teacher. How sad! One could argue that a teacher may employ rhetoric, but only in service of the truth. When the truth itself becomes obscured, then the teacher is no longer doing his duty well. If a teacher purposely obscures the truth, he is abandoning his duty."

"Franciss words tell us that he is no Benedict XVI, no John Paul II. There have often been popes who changed the direction or emphasis of their predecessors: Leo XIII did not issue any syllabus of errors, in contrast to Pius IX before him and Pius X after him, and he was generally more open to the world in a positive way. But there were no morally or doctrinally ambiguous statements coming from the mouth of Leo XIII. He did not implicitly correct the example and teachings of the holy Pope he succeeded. He emphasized different truths than his immediate predecessor but, like him, he taught the truth clearly."

"Pope Francis must keep close track of his change of emphasis. He risks acting the part of the parish priest who uses vacuous platitudes and grand gestures in an attempt to win over disgruntled, immoral, heretical parishioners. The recent history of the post-Vatican II Church shows that this strategy never works. Time and again we have witnessed that churches do not fill up when doctrine is watered down; eventually the church empties, perhaps to be abandoned entirely. If Pope Francis does not perceive this, then there will be many more sorrows that the Church will have to endure. But if he does know this, and he persists in his ambiguity nonetheless, the sorrows will be even greater."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eventually people get tired of authoritarianism. My authoritarian and quick manner of making decisions [as a Jesuit superior] led me to have serious problems and to be accused of being ultraconservative. But I have never been a right-winger.
Pope Francis on his experience in Church government (America, Sept. 30)


Posted by: MGRagan
November 20, 2013 07:15 AM EST

In my opinion, this is a superb analysis of what Pope Francis has said and done thus far. I agree that it is damaging to the faithful and the Church in general.
Pope Francis thinks like most liberals do. But Jesus wasn't a liberal. He loved the poor and He healed the sick but He reserved His harshest words for those who say one thing and do another and give scandal to the innocent. The hierarchy is full of people like that. Catholic politics is full of people like that, including a powerful gay lobby that is wreaking havoc with the culture. But according to the pope, we are not to judge. Jesus did. He spoke of fire and brimstone and millstones for those who act this way. I thought the Holy Father was His voice here on earth. Apparently not. And this is not new. Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul II certainly were not as ambiguous as this pope, but they too did little or nothing to stem the flow of Catholics leaving the Church or to discipline the clergy who were consistently giving grave scandal or covering it up. In many instances, members of the hierarchy were rewarded for their evil deeds. The Church has been in big trouble for a long time.
Christ promised He would never abandon His Church. Faithful Catholics must cling to that for now. In the end, He will triumph.



Yes, Pope Francis' choice of phrasing reminds me of the way another man used language - and He was quite the stumbing block for many. Not the clarity of the Sadducees and Pharisees at all:

Luke 12:49 I have come to set the earth on fire, and how I wish it were already blazing! 50 *There is a baptism with which I must be baptized, and how great is my anguish until it is accomplished! 51 Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth?v No, I tell you, but rather division.w 52 From now on a household of five will be divided, three against two and two against three; 53 a father will be divided against his son and a son against his father, a mother against her daughter and a daughter against her mother, a mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
Nov 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Ken-1025595 said: Yes, Pope Francis' choice of phrasing reminds me of the way another man used language - and He was quite the stumbing block for many. Not the clarity of the Sadducees and Pharisees at all:

Luke 12:49 I have come to set the earth on fire, and how I wish it were already blazing! 50 *There is a baptism with which I must be baptized, and how great is my anguish until it is accomplished! 51 Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth?v No, I tell you, but rather division.w 52 From now on a household of five will be divided, three against two and two against three; 53 a father will be divided against his son and a son against his father, a mother against her daughter and a daughter against her mother, a mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
I don't follow your attempt at satire at all.

Our Lord was opposed by the Pharisees and Sadducees not because he was "unclear" in his language but because what he was saying was crystal clear - especially when He said:
  • He is the Lord even of he Sabbath
  • That nobody could can come to the Father save through Him
  • That He is the Son of God
All the popes that have spoken clearly were opposed, and those that did knew exactly what they meant! Is the same true for Francis in the times when he isn't?

No, and those same people now cheer him. That's a red flag, and all the bantering of the Franciso terribilis dignitatem legio will not change that.

(P.S.: terribilis is latin for "awesome," as in the introit of the Mass for the consecration of a church)
Nov 23rd 2013 new
I should also clarify that when our Lord was misunderstood, He always corrected them as He did with Nicodemus when he asked if a man can go back in the womb of his mother when He spoke of being born again.[John 3]

www.drbo.org



Nov 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: I don't follow your attempt at satire at all.

Our Lord was opposed by the Pharisees and Sadducees not because he was "unclear" in his language but because what he was saying was crystal clear - especially when He said:
He is the Lord even of he SabbathThat nobody could can come to the Father save through HimThat He is the Son of GodAll the popes that have spoken clearly were opposed, and those that did knew exactly what they meant! Is the same true for Francis in the times when he isn't?

No, and those same people now cheer him. That's a red flag, and all the bantering of the Franciso terribilis dignitatem legio will not change that.

(P.S.: terribilis is latin for "awesome," as in the introit of the Mass for the consecration of a church)
Steven, I appreciate your desire for clarity. Jesus did not oppose the Sadducees and Pharisees for their clarity but because this clarity is not enough:

Matthew 5:20 I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

When we apply laws without love we become dead:

Romans 2:17 Now if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast of God 18 and know his will and are able to discern what is important since you are instructed from the law, 19 and if you are confident that you are a guide for the blind and a light for those in darkness, 20 that you are a trainer of the foolish and teacher of the simple, because in the law you have the formulation of knowledge and truth 21 then you who teach another, are you failing to teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who forbid adultery, do you commit adultery? You who detest idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast of the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 For, as it is written, Because of you the name of God is reviled among the Gentiles.

Pope Francis upholds the very clear teaching of the Church but is proclaiming that the Gospel (the Good News) needs to rekindle a love in our hearts to be a living faith. He is reaching out to the woman being stoned, the leper, Lazarus (the corrupt tax collector). He reached each of these through His mercy and sufficient love. Pope Francis, in upholding the Church teaching, is also saying "Go and sin no more."

www.vatican.va.
Nov 23rd 2013 new
Oops, link didn't work:

From Pope Francis' interview by Fr Antonio Spadaro

The church sometimes has locked itself up in small things, in small-minded rules. The most important thing is the first proclamation: Jesus Christ has saved you. And the ministers of the church must be ministers of mercy above all. The confessor, for example, is always in danger of being either too much of a rigorist or too lax. Neither is merciful, because neither of them really takes responsibility for the person. The rigorist washes his hands so that he leaves it to the commandment. The loose minister washes his hands by simply saying, This is not a sin or something like that. In pastoral ministry we must accompany people, and we must heal their wounds.
Nov 23rd 2013 new
Why are we so quick to criticize the man elected by the Holy Spirit to lead us, Christendom and the world at large toward heaven?

In my poor experience:
1. Wisdom is often more subtle and complex than can be expressed in a sentence or a paragraph.
2. Public figures are often misquoted or taken out of context for the agenda of the press.
3. Newspapers are written for a 12 year old and TV is guaged at an 8 year old level.

I might suggest that Pope Francis probably finds himself needing to:
1. Stimulate progressives to more faithfulness;
2. Call back traditionalists to more obedience;
3. Encourage Protestants to consider coming home to Rome;
4. Open the door to Jews to see us not as enemies but as a fulfillment of all their prophesies;
5. Call secularists New Agers and Communists to consider Christ, His message and His Church seriously.

These are tall orders and will require somewhat different approaches depending upon the context.

Personally, I've seen only actions and words from Pope Francis to delight me. He is an exceedingly bright man with subtlety, while being wonderfully faithful to Christ, as far as I can see. His outreach to the common man, the suffering and the poor is perfectly Christlike. His openness to people of other faiths is reminiscent of St. Paul. His simplicity models St. Francis. His facility with language is characteristically Jesuitical (I mean this in a positive sense :-) ). Let's trust in the Holy Spirit and give the new shepherd a chance!
Posts 21 - 30 of 72