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A place to learn, mingle, and share

This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
Learn More:Saint Athanasius

Nov 23rd 2013 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: I should also clarify that when our Lord was misunderstood, He always corrected them as He did with Nicodemus when he asked if a man can go back in the womb of his mother when He spoke of being born again.[John 3]

http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50003.htm



BTW, if you want something good that is clearly spoken by the Pope, here is one on the centrality of adoration in worship from a recent homily he gave:

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com

Nov 24th 2013 new

Pope Francis the Conservative?

This reprint from a blogger has to do with the Holy Father's understanding and interpretation of Vatican II. In a letter sent to Abp. Agostino Marchetto in October and made public earlier this month, Francis praised Marchetto's work as a historian and interpreter of the Council, notably in his book, The Second Vatican Ecumenical Council: A Counterpoint for the History of the Council:

"You have demonstrated this love [of the Church] in many ways, including by correcting an error or imprecision on my part - and for this I thank you from my heart - but above all it has been manifested in all its purity in your studies of Vatican Council II. I have said this to you once, dear Archbishop Marchetto, and I want to repeat it today, that I consider you the best hermeneut of Vatican Council II."

Marchetto's interpretation of the Council, as a description of his 2010 book indicates, is most certainly in keeping with the perspectives of John Paul II and Benedict XVI: "Archbishop Marchetto critiques the Bologna School, which, he suggests, presents the Council as a kind of 'Copernican revolution,' a transformation to 'another Catholicism.' Instead Marchetto invites readers to reconsider the Council directly, through its official documents, commentaries, and histories." This is no small matter, as anyone who follows such debates knows well.

And now another letter has come to light, this one from Francis to Card. Walter Brandmller on the subject of the 450th anniversary of the closing of the Council of Trent, which is December 4th. After reflecting on the great significance of Trent and its "rich doctrine," Francis writes (this from the translation by Fr. Z):

Harking closely to the same Spirit, Holy Church in this age renews and meditates on the most abundant doctrine of the Council of Trent. In fact, the hermeneutic of renewal [interpretatio renovationis] which Our Predecessor Benedict XVI explained in 2005 before the Roman Curia, refers in no way less to the Council of Trent than to the Vatican Council. To be sure, this mode of interpretation places under a brighter light a beautiful characteristic of the Church which is taught by the Lord Himself: She is a subject which increases in time and develops, yet always remaining the same, the one subject of the journeying People of God (Address of His Holiness Benedict XVI to the Roman Curia offering them his Christmas greetings 22 December 2005).

That alone should give pause to all those progressives who have been claiming that Francis is a torch bearer for the "spirit of Vatican II". In fact, the two letters are something of a "one-two" combo to the jaw of that less-than-sacred "spirit".

Third, there is the recent homily, given on November 18th, that contained some rather startling language--even for a pontiff who has often been startling in his language. Asreported by http://www.news.va:

And referring again to the passage in the Book of Maccabees, in which all nations conformed to the kings decree and adopted customs foreign to their culture, the Pope pointed out that this is not the beautiful globalization, unity of all nations, each with their own customs but united, but the uniformity of hegemonic globalization, it is he said - the single thought: the result of secular worldliness

And Pope Francis warned that this happens today. Moved by the spirit of worldliness, people negotiate their fidelity to the Lord, they negotiate their identity, and they negotiate their belonging to a people that God loves.

And with a reference to the 20th century novel Lord of the World that focuses on the spirit of worldliness that leads to apostasy, Pope Francis warned against the desire to be like everyone else and what he called an adolescent progressivism. What do you think? he said bitterly that today human sacrifices are not made? Many, many people make human sacrifices and there are laws that protect them.

It's nigh impossible to say (at least with any sense of integrity or seriousness) that such language comes from "Francis the Liberal."

Nov 25th 2013 new
(quote) Gabor-19025 said: What is the Pope saying? That is what the problem is. Is 1+1=2 or it could be 3?

"I think that Pope is saying......?" should not be a regular standing comment by Catholics. If the teacher is teaching and the students do not know what he is teaching it is ineffective no matter how much heatfelt emotion is attached to it.


Jesus quite often said things that were not understood or misunderstood at the time that He said them.

For example John 2:19
"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

How many people, even his apostles, understood what this meant at the time that Jesus said it?.... Not many, if any, I suspect. Perhaps His mother Mary.

Gabor... Using your reasoning, apparently you would say that Jesus's was ineffective no matter how much heartfelt emotion He attached to it. Really?? Ineffective?? scratchchin It seems to me that Jesus's teaching was quite effective.

Ed
Nov 25th 2013 new
To the OP, Pope Francis isn't speaking from a Western/developed worldview. The Pope it seems to me is speaking more towards the Latin American Church and it's experiences, now with this in mind I've yet to hear the Pope say something which I did not understand, now of course the media spins it and misrepresents him but nothing new there.

I think that most just don't actually know or understand Catholic theology. For example when the Pope said that the sacrifice of Christ redeemed all even Atheist, this is theologically correct his blood was spilled for all humanity yet many took the word redeem and all of a sudden replaced it with salvation, not the same thing guys. Or take for example when the Pope spoke of Homosexuals, what he said was straight out of the Catechism and even referred to said catechism yet the media twisted his words and most knew no better.


In short Francis is pretty clear in his teachings and sayings when we begin to actually read them ourselves in light of tradition.
Nov 25th 2013 new
Larry wonderfully said sir!
Nov 25th 2013 new
(quote) Jose-1011376 said: To the OP, Pope Francis isn't speaking from a Western/developed worldview. The Pope it seems to me is speaking more towards the Latin American Church and it's experiences, now with this in mind I've yet to hear the Pope say something which I did not understand, now of course the media spins it and misrepresents him but nothing new there.

I think that most just don't actually know or understand Catholic theology. For example when the Pope said that the sacrifice of Christ redeemed all even Atheist, this is theologically correct his blood was spilled for all humanity yet many took the word redeem and all of a sudden replaced it with salvation, not the same thing guys. Or take for example when the Pope spoke of Homosexuals, what he said was straight out of the Catechism and even referred to said catechism yet the media twisted his words and most knew no better.


In short Francis is pretty clear in his teachings and sayings when we begin to actually read them ourselves in light of tradition.
Jose,

Your two examples.... one concerning the atheist and the other concerning homosexuals are good ones. Anyone who has a good understanding of Catholic teaching knows that Pope Francis was creating no new doctrine here. This is longstanding Catholic teaching which is practically taken directly from the Catechism... yet it caused a great uproar because people read things into it an twisted it into something that it was not. If anyone was confused by what he said, that is an indication that they need to wipe the dust off their Catechism and read it.

Ed
Nov 25th 2013 new
As someone who often thinks she speaks/writes clearly, but whose intent is often mmisunderstood, my first thought was maybe Pope Francis isn't a great orator, but he struggles on because he is called. I wonder if he is like Moses,. Moses was called, but felt unable to speak to pharoah. He didn't say, "no" to God's will, he said he couldn't do it alone and God sent his brother to help him. When I read some of the posts, I wondered if some confusion is caused by the Pope being mistranslated olr translated badly. I went looking and found an interesting article about Pope Francis and his fluency (or lack thereof) in other languages. Unlike other popes, he isn't fluent in several languages and relies on translators. www.ncregister.com www.catholicvote.org 5. Because he sees ecclesial complacency as an enemy of the Gospel, he called young people to radical witness. Let me tell you what I hope will be the outcome of World Youth Day: I hope there will be noise. I want you to make yourselves heard in your dioceses, I want the noise to go out, I want the Church to go out onto the streets, I want us to resist everything worldly, everything static, everything comfortable, everything to do with clericalism, everything that might make us closed in on ourselves. Pope Francis (July 25, 2013, Meeting With Youth, Cathedral of San Sebastin, Rio de Janeiro)
Nov 25th 2013 new
So sorry, I'm posting from my phone and it doesn't format... and I have a hard time finding my typos!
Nov 26th 2013 new
I think the last 3 popes have been terrific in their own way. And we are very fortunate.
Francis challenges us . -And it may be uncomfortable for many catholics.
In reading different interviews with him and different statements I can see exactly what he is trying to achieve.

Perhaps that is the intuitive part of me speaking--The part that along with some basic common sense made me join the church 29 yrs ago.--

I was a seeker in the late 70s to late 80s--and I had seen/experienced a lot.--And when I converted I could see many forces within the church trying to destroy the church.--But I knew that ultimately they wouldn't prevail.

I don't see anything destructive or undermining in this pope.-He challenges but really never strays from orthodoxy.
Nov 26th 2013 new
In document, pope lays out his vision for an evangelical church


Pope Francis, shown here leaving a general audience last month in St. Peter's Square, says in a new document on "The Joy of the Gospel," that an "evangelizer must never look like someone who has just come back from a funeral!" (CNS/Paul Haring)

By Francis X. Rocca
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- In his first extensive piece of writing as pope, Pope Francis lays out a vision of the Catholic Church dedicated to evangelization in a positive key, with a focus on society's poorest and most vulnerable, including the aged and the unborn.

"Evangelii Gaudium" ("The Joy of the Gospel"), released by the Vatican Nov. 26, is an apostolic exhortation, one of the most authoritative categories of papal document. (Pope Francis' first encyclical, "Lumen Fidei," published in July, was mostly the work of his predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI.)

The pope wrote the new document in response to the October 2012 Synod of Bishops on the new evangelization, but declined to work from a draft provided by synod officials.

Pope Francis' voice is unmistakable in the 50,000-word document's relatively relaxed style -- he writes that an "evangelizer must never look like someone who has just come back from a funeral!" -- and its emphasis on some of his signature themes, including the dangers of economic globalization and "spiritual worldliness."

The church's message "has to concentrate on the essentials, on what is most beautiful, most grand, most appealing and at the same time most necessary," he writes. "In this basic core, what shines forth is the beauty of the saving love of God made manifest in Jesus Christ who died and rose from the dead."

Inspired by Jesus' poverty and concern for the dispossessed during his earthly ministry, Pope Francis calls for a "church which is poor and for the poor."

The poor "have much to teach us," he writes. "We are called to find Christ in them, to lend our voices to their causes, but also to be their friends, to listen to them, to speak for them and to embrace the mysterious wisdom which God wishes to share with us through them."

Charity is more than mere handouts, "it means working to eliminate the structural causes of poverty and to promote the integral development of the poor," the pope writes. "This means education, access to health care, and above all employment, for it is through free creative, participatory and mutually supportive labor that human beings express and enhance the dignity of their lives."

Yet he adds that the "worst discrimination which the poor suffer is the lack of spiritual care. ... They need God and we must not fail to offer them his friendship, his blessing, his word, the celebration of the sacraments and a journey of growth and maturity in the faith."

Pope Francis reiterates his earlier criticisms of "ideologies that defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation," which he blames for the current financial crisis and attributes to an "idolatry of money."

He emphasizes that the church's concern for the vulnerable extends to "unborn children, the most defenseless and innocent among us," whose defense is "closely linked to the defense of each and every other human right."

"A human being is always sacred and inviolable, in any situation and at every stage of development," the pope writes, in his strongest statement to date on the subject of abortion. "Once this conviction disappears, so do solid and lasting foundations for the defense of human rights, which would always be subject to the passing whims of the powers that be."

The pope writes that evangelization entails peacemaking, among other ways through ecumenical and interreligious dialogue. He "humbly" calls on Muslim majority countries to grant religious freedom to Christians, and enjoins Catholics to "avoid hateful generalizations" based on "disconcerting episodes of violent fundamentalism," since "authentic Islam and the proper reading of the Quran are opposed to every form of violence."

Pope Francis characteristically directs some of his strongest criticism at his fellow clergy, among other reasons, for what he describes as largely inadequate preaching.

The faithful and "their ordained ministers suffer because of homilies," he writes: "the laity from having to listen to them and the clergy from having to preach them!"

The pope devotes several pages to suggestions for better homilies, based on careful study of the Scriptures and respect for the principle of brevity.

Pope Francis reaffirms church teaching that only men can be priests, but notes that their "sacramental power" must not be "too closely identified with power in general," nor "understood as domination"; and he allows for the "possible role of women in decision-making in different areas of the church's life."

As he has done in a number of his homilies and public statements, the pope stresses the importance of mercy, particularly with regard to the church's moral teaching. While lamenting "moral relativism" that paints the church's teaching on sexuality as unjustly discriminatory, he also warns against overemphasizing certain teachings out of the context of more essential Christian truths.

In words very close to those he used in an oft-quoted interview with a Jesuit journalist in August, Pope Francis writes that "pastoral ministry in a missionary style is not obsessed with the disjointed transmission of a multitude of doctrines to be insistently imposed," lest they distract from the Gospel's primary invitation to "respond to the God of love who saves us."

Returning to a theme of earlier statements, the pope also warns against "spiritual worldliness, which hides behind the appearance of piety and even love for the church, (but) consists in seeking not the Lord's glory but human glory and personal well-being," either through embrace of a "purely subjective faith" or a "narcissistic and authoritarian elitism" that overemphasizes certain rules or a "particular Catholic style from the past."

Despite his censures and warnings, the pope ends on a hopeful note true to his well-attested devotion to Mary, whom he invokes as the mother of evangelization and "wellspring of happiness for God's little ones."
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