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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
Learn More: Saint Augustine

Dec 25th 2013 new
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

Thanks, Bernard,
So this appears to be the aspect to be focused upon. What does it mean to be perfectly purified? We do know that some have even been acknowledged by the church to qualify. What does it mean to us? And how can God's grace accomplish it? And is this what Doctor Therese was implying in her teaching?
Dec 25th 2013 new
All must be purified since we are human beings, none is perfectly purified, until they go to purgatory 1st. We are not perfect.
Dec 25th 2013 new
(quote) Cindy-534370 said: All must be purified since we are human beings, none is perfectly purified, until they go to purgatory 1st. We are not perfect.
Aren't you even a tiny bit interested in how to at least minimize the time in purgatory. Only God is in charge of how less than perfect we are.

Jesus said: "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matt 5: 48.

So shouldn't we exploring how to respond to that? And The Little Flower's way remains unexplored...please?
Dec 25th 2013 new
(quote) Cindy-534370 said: Yes, I understand what you are saying, but I am telling you and others that is what I was taught. My last class in Morality, the priest who is very educated taught us this. He said everybody goes first to purgatory, the reason is they must first be purified, even the saintly ones. He said God is so holy that all must be cleansed and made pure before entering heaven. This is not what I thought of, but was taught this. He is a Roman Catholic priest here.
Something to keep in mind: one can have a large amount of education that is not entirely orthodox.

I will provide secific comments in a reply to your previous post to try to keep the context straight.

Dec 25th 2013 new
(quote) Cindy-534370 said: Hi Lynea,
I was just briefly reading some of the end post, and caught the line you wrote about someone going to confession and receiving absolution, after leaving the confession he dropped over and died, you said he went directly to heaven,
I want to bring out, that this is not true. Everybody goes first to purgatory, whether they are free of their sins or not, The person who was reconciled with Jesus, after he died, he went to purgatory. You must first be purified before entering into heaven, that includes everybody,



Cindy, you raise a valid point here, but the statement is not entirely correct. As Paul noted, I think it would be correct that the vast majority of those souls that are saved undergo some purgation, it is not an absolute certainty (even if you don't consider the Blessed Virgin and John the Baptist).

Each sin we commit brings with it both guilt, restitutiion, and temporal punishment that must be satisfied before we enter heaven. Consider a temporal analogy: if someone robs you, if they sincerely apologize and return what they stole, you may forgive them but they will still have to serve time in prison for the crime.

It is true that the absolution in confession provides forgiveness of the guilt for our sins but not of the temporal punishment (the purification) due. The error is in stating that everyone must go through purgation before entering heaven. The Church grants indulgences for specific acts, usually prayers, performed under certain conditions. These indulgences may be either partial or full: partial indulgences satisfy a portion of the temporal punishment due; full indulgences completely satisfy the temporal punishment due at that point in time (N.B. they do NOT prevent additional temporal punishment from being incurred in the future). There is a form of the Apostolic Blessing which can be administered at death that includes a full indulgence. (sanctamissa.org )

In another post you mentioned that you were given this information by a priest. In one sense, it is good that he is trying to make the faithful aware of the likelihood that we will undergo purgation if saved, especially given the very common practice of "pulpit canonizations" -- where a priest speaks of the deceased at their funeral as if they are already in heaven -- which may well result in people failing to pray for the repose of the souls of their deceased loved one; however, it would be equally helpful for him to make them aware of the ways they can satisfy at least a portion of their own temporal punishment here on earth.

If you have the opportunity, you might ask him about indulgences in the context of his previous statement.

Dec 25th 2013 new
(quote) Cathy-564420 said: If the person was truly sorry for his sins and got them ALL absolved and crocked, I would say he passed purgatory and went straight to heaven with his maker:) The beautiful gift of confession!
What do you mean by "crocked"?

Dec 25th 2013 new
Hi Chris,

Second: Insistence on Purgatory strikes me as a restriction on a loving God, rather than an aspersion on our own sinful nature.

I thought this was interesting. I've heard others speak of Purgatory in a similar way. I've always viewed it as a loving thing. I feel the same about confession. I find the idea of Purgatory comforting, as Our Lord provides all means for us to come to him.

And, you are right to give an exhortation to back away a bit. These are all parts of the mysteries of Faith, things we know little of and will know little of until our time to face them, at which time we won't really be able to tell anyone what happens. :-).

Dec 25th 2013 new
(quote) Cathy-564420 said: Hi Cindy,
I would get a second opinion. I truly believe in the power of confession and last rights of the Catholic church. If you are truly sorry for your sins and want forgiveness, then they are absolved by a priest. Purgatory how I was taught if you died not in a state of grace you would go to purgatory even with little sins.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but what would be the purpose of confession if you are unable to wipe the slate clean, meaning whiten your soul? Obviously, you need to be truly sorry when you ask Jesus for forgiveness.

Sorry, Cathy, but this represents an incomplete understanding of the Church's teachings in this area: please see my response to Cindy elsewhere in this topic on the distinction between absolution and remission of temporal punishment.

I believe you may have mis-worded the last sentence, but to clarify: to be outside a state of grace means to have unrepented mortal sins on your soul. If one dies in this state there is no salvation. In extraordinary cases God may grant a person the grace to make an act of perfect contrition (sorrow because of the offense caused to God, not merely because of our fear of eternal punishment) before death, but this is not something one should count on. Venial sins reduce our state of grace, but they never place us completely outside a state pf grace as does mortal sin.

Dec 25th 2013 new
(quote) Lauren-927923 said: Hi Chris,

Second: Insistence on Purgatory strikes me as a restriction on a loving God, rather than an aspersion on our own sinful nature.

I thought this was interesting. I've heard others speak of Purgatory in a similar way. I've always viewed it as a loving thing. I feel the same about confession. I find the idea of Purgatory comforting, as Our Lord provides all means for us to come to him.

And, you are right to give an exhortation to back away a bit. These are all parts of the mysteries of Faith, things we know little of and will know little of until our time to face them, at which time we won't really be able to tell anyone what happens. :-).

Au contraire -- Purgatory is the ultimate act of God's mercy: without this final purification, how many soiled souls would be lost for eternity.

In the words of St. Thomas Aquinas: Mercy without justice is the mother of dissolution; [and] justice without mercy is cruelty.

www.tfp.org




Dec 25th 2013 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: Au contraire -- Purgatory is the ultimate act of God's mercy: without this final purification, how many soiled souls would be lost for eternity.

In the words of St. Thomas Aquinas: Mercy without justice is the mother of dissolution; [and] justice without mercy is cruelty.

http://www.tfp.org/tfp-home/catholic-perspective/mercy-without-justice-is-the-mother-of-dissolution-justice-without-mercy-is-cruelty.html




LOL Jerry we are in agreement in this -- ultimate act of mercy - ultimate act of love. I should have pointed out I was responding to the first sentence which came from Chris' post.
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