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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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Dec 25th 2013 new
Jerry,

A technical question: How do we get back to responses to our posts page without having to wait for someone else to respond?? Its frustrating to have two or three responses but when you respond to one you can't get back to the page? I am confused :-(.
Dec 25th 2013 new
(quote) Lauren-927923 said: Jerry,

A technical question: How do we get back to responses to our posts page without having to wait for someone else to respond?? Its frustrating to have two or three responses but when you respond to one you can't get back to the page? I am confused :-(.
Add this link to your browser shortcut bar:

www.catholicmatch.com

(The is the link that is attached to the button)

Dec 25th 2013 new
(quote) Bernard-2709 said: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611
Thanks for linking this Bernard.
Dec 25th 2013 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: Cindy, you raise a valid point here, but the statement is not entirely correct. As Paul noted, I think it would be correct that the vast majority of those souls that are saved undergo some purgation, it is not an absolute certainty (even if you don't consider the Blessed Virgin and John the Baptist).

Each sin we commit brings with it both guilt, restitutiion, and temporal punishment that must be satisfied before we enter heaven. Consider a temporal analogy: if someone robs you, if they sincerely apologize and return what they stole, you may forgive them but they will still have to serve time in prison for the crime.

It is true that the absolution in confession provides forgiveness of the guilt for our sins but not of the temporal punishment (the purification) due. The error is in stating that everyone must go through purgation before entering heaven. The Church grants indulgences for specific acts, usually prayers, performed under certain conditions. These indulgences may be either partial or full: partial indulgences satisfy a portion of the temporal punishment due; full indulgences completely satisfy the temporal punishment due at that point in time (N.B. they do NOT prevent additional temporal punishment from being incurred in the future). There is a form of the Apostolic Blessing which can be administered at death that includes a full indulgence. (http://sanctamissa.org/en/resources/books-1962/rituale-romanum/36-the-sacrament-of-the-anointing-of-sick-apostolic-blessing-plenary-indulgence-at-the-hour-of-death.html )

In another post you mentioned that you were given this information by a priest. In one sense, it is good that he is trying to make the faithful aware of the likelihood that we will undergo purgation if saved, especially given the very common practice of "pulpit canonizations" -- where a priest speaks of the deceased at their funeral as if they are already in heaven -- which may well result in people failing to pray for the repose of the souls of their deceased loved one; however, it would be equally helpful for him to make them aware of the ways they can satisfy at least a portion of their own temporal punishment here on earth.

If you have the opportunity, you might ask him about indulgences in the context of his previous statement.

Thanks Jerry, yes that is what I am saying in less words than you. This is nothing I thought out but have been taught and even the link of info from the Vatican on the teachings is that we all enter Purgatory, now those who are forgiven of their sins and are truly good, still have to enter the process of purification before entering heaven, some might still have some venial sins, we don't know that,for God is so Holy. Since even those who deserve to go straight to heaven, according to the Church and not what we think it should be, we are human beings and not perfect, but God will make us perfect. Now the amount of time one spends there, it could be a very short time, it is hard to figure in the time, since we don't know how the time is there, maybe not like our time.
Nonetheless, they are going to heaven which is the good thing.
Yes, God is most loving and forgiving, but yet we must be purified to be with God in heaven. That is a good thing.
Dec 25th 2013 new
(quote) Larry-994477 said: Aren't you even a tiny bit interested in how to at least minimize the time in purgatory. Only God is in charge of how less than perfect we are.

Jesus said: "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matt 5: 48.

So shouldn't we exploring how to respond to that? And The Little Flower's way remains unexplored...please?
Of course Larry, I don't write a lot and try to say a lot in a sentence. The ones who are saintly that still must be purified, probably won't be going through the process for a long time, as to the ones who made it to purgatory and still have sins, might be there a lot longer.
The good thing is if you make to purgatory your on your way to heaven.
Dec 25th 2013 new
(quote) Chris-930705 said: That's the part of Luke 23 that got cut for space, I guess.

42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be in [Purgatory, because not even I have the power to bring you to] Paradise with Me."

First note: We're talking about things that happen after death, and if Jesus discoursed on exactly what a soul should expect, that discussion wasn't recorded. So, please, let's everybody back away from being absolutely sure of anything. We're all getting our information second hand.

Second: Insistence on Purgatory strikes me as a restriction on a loving God, rather than an aspersion on our own sinful nature. By rights, none of us should be thinking about Purgatory, let alone Heaven. I am surprised that people think that the same Love that can free us from the chains of Hell is helpless against the necessity of Purgatory.
No not really Chris, this is not second hand information, it is the Church's teaching's, not mine, and keep in mind our faith is based on Tradition and Scripture, not just Scripture.
I don't like the thought of going to purgatory to be purified either, but I know if I get there, it will be eternity for me, and that is a good thing. It also makes sense to me, to have to go through the process of purification, since God is so Almighty and perfect, and I am not.
Dec 25th 2013 new
(quote) Cindy-534370 said: Thanks Jerry, yes that is what I am saying in less words than you. This is nothing I thought out but have been taught and even the link of info from the Vatican on the teachings is that we all enter Purgatory, now those who are forgiven of their sins and are truly good, still have to enter the process of purification before entering heaven, some might still have some venial sins, we don't know that,for God is so Holy. Since even those who deserve to go straight to heaven, according to the Church and not what we think it should be, we are human beings and not perfect, but God will make us perfect. Now the amount of time one spends there, it could be a very short time, it is hard to figure in the time, since we don't know how the time is there, maybe not like our time.
Nonetheless, they are going to heaven which is the good thing.
Yes, God is most loving and forgiving, but yet we must be purified to be with God in heaven. That is a good thing.
What teaching of the Church states all (who are saved) will enter Purgatory? I have never seen any such teaching. In fact, her teaching on plenary indulgences is a direct contradiction to what you are claiming.

Dec 25th 2013 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: What teaching of the Church states all (who are saved) will enter Purgatory? I have never seen any such teaching. In fact, her teaching on plenary indulgences is a direct contradiction to what you are claiming.

Please read Bernard's link from the Vatican, that is the teachings of the Church, it is in there Jerry.
Even saved souls must go through the process of being purified, and the church, placed this to a place called purgatory. We are not sure if it is a place, but that is how it is referenced, so we can relate to it. It is considered more of a process. This doesn't mean the person is damned.
The rest you will see. I only know what you know and nothing more, nor do I think of any other ways, except what the Church teaches.
Dec 25th 2013 new
This link is to an article on the EWTN web site that provides more detail on the concept of satisfaction for sins and explains how we may provide that satisfaction while alive to reduce or avoid Purgatory.

www.ewtn.com


Dec 25th 2013 new
(quote) Cindy-534370 said: Please read Bernard's link from the Vatican, that is the teachings of the Church, it is in there Jerry.
Even saved souls must go through the process of being purified, and the church, placed this to a place called purgatory. We are not sure if it is a place, but that is how it is referenced, so we can relate to it. It is considered more of a process. This doesn't mean the person is damned.
The rest you will see. I only know what you know and nothing more, nor do I think of any other ways, except what the Church teaches.
From Bernard's post (which is an excerpt from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, BTW):

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification

Notice the condition, which I have bolded. In order to reconcile your assertion with this statement one would have to assume that no soul is perfectly purified prior to death. What basis, other than the statement made by the priest previous mentioned in this topic, do you have for making this assumption?

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