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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

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Dec 30th 2013 new
This thread is being moved from Dating & Single Living because it is completely off-topic. Posts/Threads that are clearly off topic in a room can result in a a warning or suspension. There has been an increase of these kinds of threads and it begins to ruin the purpose of each room. There is going to be an extreme emphasis on this in the coming year.
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Dec 30th 2013 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: Maybe I don't know what the pre-VII parish life was like on Sunday. I only know my own parish now, and the OF masses I've seen; and there are problems in the later too.

However, whatever issue were in the performance of the EF in those days did not require the total do-over of the Mass of Paul VI; neither did Sacrosanctum Concilium call for it.
Hi Steven,

It's not a total do over, it is bringing back the sacred. It is bringing back the sacred. theheart goldfish hug
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Dec 30th 2013 new
I don't separate the Church into the "pre-conciliar" and "post-conciliar" Churches as if they are separate things with little connection to one another, any more than I would treat the Old Testament as obsolete because the New Testament came along. They are both products of the one and same Word made Flesh and must be understood in the light of one another. Likewise, the post-conciliar Church must be understood in the light of the pre-conciliar Church. I just don't go along with the idea that everything before 1962 was bad and everything after is just dandy. (Conversely, the Church didn't die in 1962 either.)

What youngsters are discovering is that their parents and grandparents tossed much of the heritage to which they have a right straight into the garbage can. Youngsters are discovering that their parents and grandparents made lots of mistakes. The children and grandchildren of broken homes have seen and suffered first hand the results of much of what was done in the name of Vatican II, and they are determined to do better for their children and grandchildren. And, unlike their parents and grandparents, they are actually reading the documents of Vatican II and discovering what they really said (not what some vague Spirit of Vatican II taught). If I were writing a blog today, much of what I just covered would be its focus, and I would hammer home those points until people got tired of reading it, because this is what people need to read.
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Dec 30th 2013 new
The human mind is a funny thing.

Marina, you seem to suggest that not enough post-Vatican II ideals are put forth by the Church. On the contrary, I feel that today's Church is entirely too modern and liberal, and is entirely too poisoned by Vatican II.

You seem to think that people are unable to follow along with the Latin Mass due to it being in a foreign tongue. I, on the contrary, am unable to follow along with anything in English (or Spanish, or German, or French...) - and this, of course, assumes that I can keep my temper long enough to sit through an entire modern Mass.

A little over ten years ago, I visited family in Germany. My German was limited to greeting people and declining additional food offered by my family. However, five minutes into Mass I completely forgot that I was in a foreign country, and I was jolted back into this awareness when Father started giving his sermon in German. For five or six days I had been stuck in a tiny bubble of familiarity among an ocean of incomprehensibility, but once Mass started, I was home.

This is what it means to be catholic - universal. It is a Mass for all of mankind, throughout all of the history - past and future - of the New Covenant. No matter how many languages our tongues have been broken into after Babel, we are reunited in the Mass that is identical regardless of where on the globe it is said.

Tradidi ... quod et accepi. Vatican II did not pass on what it received. This should be obvious to everyone, regardless of one's opinion of Vatican II.

Oh, and a tangent:

@Steven:
The Faith proclaimed in Latin is not "uncomprehending" simply because it is spoken in a "dead" language that happens to be the base for most languages in Western Europe including ours!

English is a Germanic language, not a Romance language.
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Dec 30th 2013 new
(quote) Hunter-996560 said: The human mind is a funny thing.

Marina, you seem to suggest that not enough post-Vatican II ideals are put forth by the Church. On the contrary, I feel that today's Church is entirely too modern and liberal, and is entirely too poisoned by Vatican II.

You seem to think that people are unable to follow along with the Latin Mass due to it being in a foreign tongue. I, on the contrary, am unable to follow along with anything in English (or Spanish, or German, or French...) - and this, of course, assumes that I can keep my temper long enough to sit through an entire modern Mass.

A little over ten years ago, I visited family in Germany. My German was limited to greeting people and declining additional food offered by my family. However, five minutes into Mass I completely forgot that I was in a foreign country, and I was jolted back into this awareness when Father started giving his sermon in German. For five or six days I had been stuck in a tiny bubble of familiarity among an ocean of incomprehensibility, but once Mass started, I was home.

This is what it means to be catholic - universal. It is a Mass for all of mankind, throughout all of the history - past and future - of the New Covenant. No matter how many languages our tongues have been broken into after Babel, we are reunited in the Mass that is identical regardless of where on the globe it is said.

Tradidi ... quod et accepi. Vatican II did not pass on what it received. This should be obvious to everyone, regardless of one's opinion of Vatican II.

Oh, and a tangent:

@Steven:
The Faith proclaimed in Latin is not "uncomprehending" simply because it is spoken in a "dead" language that happens to be the base for most languages in Western Europe including ours!

English is a Germanic language, not a Romance language.
hug Bow Doverock on Hunter clap theheart
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Dec 30th 2013 new
(quote) Jane-933948 said: rock on Hunter
English consists of a lot of Latin root words due to the Norman influence on the language.

You know...1066 and all that!

www.amazon.com

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Dec 30th 2013 new
(quote) Jane-933948 said: Hi Steven,

It's not a total do over, it is bringing back the sacred. It is bringing back the sacred.
Restoring the sacred is what Pope Benedict XVI was doing with Summorum Pontificum. The point was to allow the use of the EF to reform the OF.

Even Benedict said that the OF was an "artificial product" not in keeping with authentic tradition. Even those who wrote the liturgy of Paul VI agreed, such as Fr. Gelineau.

What sacred thing was lost in the EF that suddenly arrived in the OF?
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Dec 30th 2013 new
Pope Benedict XVI's words about how the media helped to spread erroneous interpretations of Vatican II, ring home with me. Most people praising VII don't seem to have actually read Lumen Gentium as their assumptions wind up being false.
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Dec 30th 2013 new
The dogmas are still the same, including "outside the Church there is no salvation".
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Dec 31st 2013 new
(quote) Greg-902815 said: The dogmas are still the same, including "outside the Church there is no salvation".
Yep.
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