Faith Focused Dating. Create your Free Profile and meet your Match!

A place to learn, mingle, and share

This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
Learn More: Saint Augustine

Jan 2nd 2014 new
(quote) Marina-1024960 said: Mark:
Moving backwards has never been demonstrated to be "better" than going forward to meet modern challenges. Those who don't learn from the past are condemned to repeat it. What is it about the past that we want to repeat? Slavery, social injustice, feudalism, lack of medical progress? When societies stop moving forward this is what they get.
Whenever I hear the word "correctness" in relation to the Liturgy, I think of Christ's condemnation of the Pharisees for strict adherence to empty tradition. I also remember Latin Masses in front of bored or mystified parishioners who couldn't participate fully even if they wanted to. Do you? What is the sense of the sacred when people are dozing off, praying the rosary, discussing last night's movie in between snatches of explanation of where we are now in the Missalette? When the celebrant says to me in my native language, "This is My body........." I am transformed by the words. I don't need the sound of a traditional bell to remind me to pay attention.
My experience, as I mentioned, has been longer than yours and I've been pre-and post the changes brought in by John XXIII. Last time I looked, no "truths" were either violated or discarded by the modest modernization carried out by the Vatican II documents. In fact, today we are closer to true Liturgical correctness due to the dedication of scholars who really understand the language of the early Church and have truth as their motivation; no one is translating what he thinks we should hear, according to his opinion of what Christ should have said and what the translator wanted Him to say. AND, we can hear it in a language we understand anywhere in the world. Moral decline stays pretty much the same - consider the Dark Ages period of history and compare it with modern times- war, conquest, murder, and destruction did not emerge full-grown from the forhead of modern times. It's obvious we are no longer taught history. Men will always allow evil to overcome them at some point; that's why we have been redeemed.
I wonder, often, what "truths" Traditionalists are afraid of losing........... "permissiveness" is usually the backlash of injustice or indifference; that's how we as imperfect beings react. Those who want to see better behavior should behave better. I don't attend Mass and remain a practicing Catholic due to "appeal" and the kind of fundamentalism I see lately should scare everyone. It sure scares me. How appalling to contemplate the unthinkable; a stagnant faith proclaimed in a dead language to the uncomprehending . Can anyone in his or her right mind think this is what Christ wants for His living Church? I'll bet the Hebrew forefathers considered Christianity to be "watered down" - what do you mean we don't stone offenders to death any more?? Tradition.........

To anyone who really knows history, there has been moral decline in the last 50-60 years with regard to some very important foundational issues. These include the value of individual life, ( as shown by greater acceptance of abortion and euthanasia ), sexual morality, and the value of marriage. Yes, it is true that society has gotten better in other ways. But the idea that society and/or the Church is always progressing for the better is false historically. I think it also disregards the way Satan works. The Enemy always tries to find new ways to bring society down and always tries to find new ways to bring individuals down too. I believe in Vatican II and in no way am I nostalgic for "good old days" (they never really existed). But those who focus on the value of traditions and on the objective teachings of the Church do not deserve to be compared to Pharisees or slaveholders. It is not fair.

LOCKED
Jan 2nd 2014 new
(quote) Mark-642218 said: Attitude & belief is the difference. 1/ Modernism is founded on the belief that man is the supreme measure of all reality. Modernism does not simply seek progress and prosperity; it champions an entirely new worldview, one directly at odds with the Catholic faith.
Truth, according to the modernist, depends upon each individuals subjective perceptions and beliefs, not upon any objective, universal order descending from God. Truth thus changes from person to person, from age to age, from place to place, and modernism insists that human reason alone can determine what is right and wrong, good and bad, true and false. Most importantly, all individuals have a right by their very existence to exercise this subjective judgment as best pleases them, so long as they do not injure the rights of another individual.
2/ Catholics and modernists also disagree on the proper use of this liberty. Modernism claims that the human conscience is the supreme arbiter of good and evil for each individual; thus everyone can act as he pleases except in cases where this action would endanger the rights of someone else. Catholicism insists that this liberty is a great gift from God and can be exercised well or poorly. To choose what is objectively good and in accordance with Gods will is a proper and fitting exercise of this liberty; it makes a man truly free. On the other hand, to choose what is objectively evil and contrary to Gods will is an abuse. No one has the right to abuse this liberty, even if it does not seem to directly harm someone else because such an abuse always opposes and offends God, the supreme good.
Yet nothing Marina has written falls into the category of "modernism" you write about.

Since Vatican II did not and has not introduced this "modernism" you worry about into the Church no matter how hard one can try to insist that it does.

The Church eschews it despite the fact you insist otherwise.

In short, self-styled "traditionalist' have introduced virtually introduced a new heresy in the church, The belief that that for the last 50 or so years, the gates of hell have prevailed against the church.

It has not and will not happen. We have Christ's assurance of that.
LOCKED
Jan 2nd 2014 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: Yet nothing Marina has written falls into the category of "modernism" you write about.

Since Vatican II did not and has not introduced this "modernism" you worry about into the Church no matter how hard one can try to insist that it does.

The Church eschews it despite the fact you insist otherwise.

In short, self-styled "traditionalist' have introduced virtually introduced a new heresy in the church, The belief that that for the last 50 or so years, the gates of hell have prevailed against the church.

It has not and will not happen. We have Christ's assurance of that.

Paul this has already happened.

1/ Modernism believes that religious knowledge emanates from the individual. This knowledge arises from within as a subjective impulse of the conscience or subconscious. All religions, therefore, are more or less good and praiseworthy since they all, in different ways, manifest and signify mans inborn religious instinct. There are thus as many different understandings of God as there are men. All these various notions of truth and of the divine deserve respect, for they are all legitimate expressions of the human spirit. Through mutual dialogue, different religious come to understand and respect one another, and this in turn promotes healthy peace and compromise.

Catholicism, on the other hand, teaches that it is the one true religion revealed directly by God. Only the Catholic faith can bring lasting happiness and true peace, not only between men in this life, but between man and God for all eternity in heaven. Since God wants every human being to possess this truth and happiness, the Catholic Church has a duty to spread its teachings and manifest its presence as far and wide as possible. These teachings come directly from God Himself and are thus free of all falsehood, and the Church, therefore, must lovingly encourage all souls, for their own good, to abandon error and embrace the truth.

Catholicism, through ecumenism, upholds the rights of God and promotes conversion while modernism pursues dialogue and compromise.

2/ This modernist desire to make the people feel more included and important in the liturgy has produced several other noticeable changes: the Blessed Sacrament (traditionally the focus of all liturgical prayer and adoration) is now often reserved away from the main altar and out of view; Latin, the sacred language of the Catholic Church, has been replaced by the various vernacular tongues; the laity often read the Epistle and Gospel during Mass, roles once reserved to clerics; the number of genuflections and other signs of respect and submission shown to God have been reduced; lay ministers now distribute the Eucharist which the faithful receive standing and in the hand; altar girls share liturgical responsibilities with altar boys.

The fruits of these changes have been, among many others, a shocking reduction in the number of religious vocations and a decrease in weekly attendance at Mass. Sacramental confession, as an important preparation before receiving the Eucharist, has also steadily declined.

LOCKED
Jan 2nd 2014 new
(quote) Greg-902815 said:  It's scary because there was a thread on here(i think in the dating/single life thread) titled: "why are there so many men on here who's status is 'never married?,". Someone came onto a Catholic website, and complained that many men had never been previously married. Don't you see what's happening here? This is a total inversion of morality and an assault on Catholic teaching, from WITHIN.
Greg,

It does give me hope when a young man like you can see what is happening. The inversion of the Truth is unbelievably in your face wherever you turn but so many are blind to it because they are dazzled by the glamour of the world which is all about our personal rights. God also has rights.

LOCKED
Jan 2nd 2014 new
www.youtube.com

LOCKED
Jan 2nd 2014 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: English consists of a lot of Latin root words due to the Norman influence on the language.

You know...1066 and all that!

http://www.amazon.com/1066-All-That-memorable-history/dp/0750917164

Valid point!

I once read someone's theory that English evolved when people tried speaking German with a French accent. It was said tongue in cheek, but I can see how that could potentially have had a basis in fact.

Also, one of my favorite shirts has the phrase: "English doesn't borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets looking for loose grammar."
LOCKED
Jan 2nd 2014 new
Concerning replacing Latin with the vernacular, I suspect there would have been a much greater decline in church attendance had Latin been kept.

Latin might have meaning in Western/Latin America countries where Rome was a significant part of Western history and Latin is intimately related to the majority of the languages. This does not hold true for places like Sub-Saharan Africa, the Far East, India, etc.

the number of genuflections and other signs of respect and submission shown to God have been reduced

A number of these signs came from customs about how to approach and treat secular kings. As modern society does not have kings, this concept has become lost.

altar girls share liturgical responsibilities with altar boys.

We once had female deacons.



LOCKED
Jan 2nd 2014 new
(quote) Alex-789274 said: Concerning replacing Latin with the vernacular, I suspect there would have been a much greater decline in church attendance had Latin been kept. 


Mass attendance has decreased from circa 75% of Catholics to 25% and you are claiming that that the victory of the New Mass is saving a much larger destruction? I hope that the comment was put out there to get a reaction rather than a legitimate theory?

Reference www.renewamerica.com

If the NFL or NBL changed the rules of the game and crowds went down 50% subsequently would you claim that the rules committee saved the game?
LOCKED
Jan 2nd 2014 new
(quote) Greg-902815 said: Well stated, Gabor. There was one person who told me that a friend of theirs was getting a divorce simply because her husband lost his job. Annullments seem to be almost handouts these days and people are allowed to get through the process for unwarranted reasons. It's scary because there was a thread on here(i think in the dating/single life thread) titled: "why are there so many men on here who's status is 'never married?,". Someone came onto a Catholic website, and complained that many men had never been previously married. Don't you see what's happening here? This is a total inversion of morality and an assault on Catholic teaching, from WITHIN. What Pius XII praised in his encyclical :Sacra Virginitas is being assaulted by the modernist attitude. The modern "apologists" aren't helping things either; in fact they're part of the problem as far as I'm concerned.

One personb told me that another person was divorcing simply because her husband lost his job.

So you are relying on a third hand account apparently about someone you do not know that they were divorcing for what appears to be a frivolous reason. And you think it is important to post it here.

Don't you see how gossipy, in the worst sense of that word, it is to post such a statement here?

Someone else talks about the horror of a priest advising someone to get a divorce. Yet shows no apparent knowledge of any of the facts in the case that might explain why the priest so advised someone to do that. But hey, the unfounded and unsupported story makes a great defense of the supposed heresy of modernism that the poster supports with no more proof than his own conclusions which may or may not have any basis in fact or reality.

Why doesn't everyone just worry about their own salvation and stop looking for allthese "horrors" in the Church to complain about. After all, the Church has changed no teachings, doctrines or dogmas. The Mass in the form of the Novus is still a valid and licit Mass whether someone personally likes it or not. Satan has not conquered the Church from within or without; he can't.

If the prtiests in these stories did wrong, they will answer to God.
LOCKED
Jan 2nd 2014 new
(quote) Mark-642218 said:

Paul this has already happened.

1/ Modernism believes that religious knowledge emanates from the individual. This knowledge arises from within as a subjective impulse of the conscience or subconscious. All religions, therefore, are more or less good and praiseworthy since they all, in different ways, manifest and signify mans inborn religious instinct. There are thus as many different understandings of God as there are men. All these various notions of truth and of the divine deserve respect, for they are all legitimate expressions of the human spirit. Through mutual dialogue, different religious come to understand and respect one another, and this in turn promotes healthy peace and compromise.

Catholicism, on the other hand, teaches that it is the one true religion revealed directly by God. Only the Catholic faith can bring lasting happiness and true peace, not only between men in this life, but between man and God for all eternity in heaven. Since God wants every human being to possess this truth and happiness, the Catholic Church has a duty to spread its teachings and manifest its presence as far and wide as possible. These teachings come directly from God Himself and are thus free of all falsehood, and the Church, therefore, must lovingly encourage all souls, for their own good, to abandon error and embrace the truth.

Catholicism, through ecumenism, upholds the rights of God and promotes conversion while modernism pursues dialogue and compromise.

2/ This modernist desire to make the people feel more included and important in the liturgy has produced several other noticeable changes: the Blessed Sacrament (traditionally the focus of all liturgical prayer and adoration) is now often reserved away from the main altar and out of view; Latin, the sacred language of the Catholic Church, has been replaced by the various vernacular tongues; the laity often read the Epistle and Gospel during Mass, roles once reserved to clerics; the number of genuflections and other signs of respect and submission shown to God have been reduced; lay ministers now distribute the Eucharist which the faithful receive standing and in the hand; altar girls share liturgical responsibilities with altar boys.

The fruits of these changes have been, among many others, a shocking reduction in the number of religious vocations and a decrease in weekly attendance at Mass. Sacramental confession, as an important preparation before receiving the Eucharist, has also steadily declined.

If you had not noticed, Mark, the Church has remained true to its teachings before Vatican II, inside of the Vatican II documents, in the Novus and in all its teachings, Doctrines and dogmas since Vatican II.

You complain about the fact that individuals have strayed as if the Church itself has strayed. It has not and cannot.

What is so hard to understand about that?
LOCKED
Posts 41 - 50 of 63