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A place to learn, mingle, and share

This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
Learn More:Saint Athanasius

Jan 17th 2014 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: That first sentence is the line of Modernists who do not believe there is any permanent truth, either in religion or the natural order.

This is not only why we have Indifferentism spreading among the pews and the clergy, but even scientists who claim to seek the truth in the natural order are increasingly wandering into mythmaking with ideas like multiverses (which are designed to explain away fine tuning while not acknowledging God's hand). To see the later, look up the Science Fictions series by Denyse O'Leary.

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/01/is_there_a_road080961.html

The answer is to speak the truth in charity, which also means being sparing with the irony (a matter in which I am, I must admit, the foremost of sinners).

Since somebody asked how these "ecumenical" activities are troublesome, allow me to show a couple of examples of how people in the pews are taking the cues from our episcopate on this.

The first examples comes from China, where a man returned to a Daoist temple to give thanks to an idol for letting him have a child. Why did he not go to have a mass celebrated?

www.wantchinatimes.com

Now for something closer to home, how about the number of people, even on CM, that are practicing yoga. Many are ignorant of this, but yoga is a practice of the Hindu religion, and is considered inseparable from it by Hindus. Just recently there was a hindu leader that told Christians that they should not perform yoga for that very reason.

Sad to think that leaders of pagan religions are more soliticous for the preservation of their faith than lay Catholics or even the clergy.
Jan 17th 2014 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: The point is that this act promotes the idea that any religion is "just as good as" the Catholic faith.

In effect, and in practice, it teaches the error of Indifferentism.
 

Steven,

This is simply not true and you are putting your own interpretation here (as "indifferentism" by O'Malley). You need to prove that this is in fact what he IS doing. There is no evidence that he is equating the Methodist and the Catholic faith, except in that one instance there is some commonality.

Read Gerald's comments. He is pretty much correct in his points he makes. Methodists do have some things in common with Catholics. Saying that it is "just as good as" is only in some people's heads, and what you think in this doesn't necessarily make it so, with all due respect. Sorry.

If, what you say was without doubt (a fact) only then could you go off on the tangent with "indifferentism".

Jan 17th 2014 new

I think a number of gentlemen commenting on this thread are "indifferent" to the complete truth in regards to what is cited regarding Cardinal O'Malley's actions.

Jan 17th 2014 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: Since somebody asked how these "ecumenical" activities are troublesome, allow me to show a couple of examples of how people in the pews are taking the cues from our episcopate on this.

The first examples comes from China, where a man returned to a Daoist temple to give thanks to an idol for letting him have a child. Why did he not go to have a mass celebrated?

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20140116000122&cid=1103

Now for something closer to home, how about the number of people, even on CM, that are practicing yoga. Many are ignorant of this, but yoga is a practice of the Hindu religion, and is considered inseparable from it by Hindus. Just recently there was a hindu leader that told Christians that they should not perform yoga for that very reason.

Sad to think that leaders of pagan religions are more soliticous for the preservation of their faith than lay Catholics or even the clergy.
Just condemning yoga without explanation makes no sense.

If one practices yoga with all of its religious overtones. Your observation would be correct. But if all a person is doing is the physical exercises of yoga, there is nothing wrong with it. They might even be more helpful for some people than other exercise regimens.
Jan 18th 2014 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: Just condemning yoga without explanation makes no sense.

If one practices yoga with all of its religious overtones. Your observation would be correct. But if all a person is doing is the physical exercises of yoga, there is nothing wrong with it. They might even be more helpful for some people than other exercise regimens.
Certain stretches and breathing patterns are common to yoga and other acceptable practices, and they are in themselves neutral. You are correct.

And, BTW, I did not condemn anyone on CM or anywhere for doing this, but was pointing out the widespread nature of it. What I was pointing out was the ease at which this can be confused with spiritual consolations, and the false nature of the attempt to "baptize" yoga practices, which is unacceptable to Hindus and should be to us.

www.catholic.com


Jan 18th 2014 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: Certain stretches and breathing patterns are common to yoga and other acceptable practices, and they are in themselves neutral. You are correct.

And, BTW, I did not condemn anyone on CM or anywhere for doing this, but was pointing out the widespread nature of it. What I was pointing out was the ease at which this can be confused with spiritual consolations, and the false nature of the attempt to "baptize" yoga practices, which is unacceptable to Hindus and should be to us.

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/the-trouble-with-yoga


To us as Catholics the exercise of Yoga in a religious context is in fact condemned by the Church. The fact that any number of people who claim to be Catholic ignore the Church on the issue does not change the fact that the Church condemns it.


Jan 18th 2014 new
What exactly is the issue that is aggravating the opposition:


that Cardinal O'Malley attended the special service ---- which he should not have?

or

that he attended the service as a participant rather than a spectator ---- which he should not have?

or

that he called down God's blessing on the water --- which he should not have?

or

that he submitted to the reaffirmation ritual at the hands of a woman instead of, say, the male United Methodist bishop --- which he should not have?

or

that he submitted to the ritual (which isn't a formal United Methodist sacrament as would be their holy communion, but a group cohesion-type thing, rather like renewing one's marriage vows in some kind of ceremony which is not, of course, repeating the sacrament of marriage).


Is an ecumenical ceremony to remember the common baptism a no-no? Should the Catholic Church have been unrepresented at that ceremony? Should it have been represented by a lower ranking cleric? What if that senior American still well-regarded by social and political conservatives, George W. Bush, a member of the United Methodist Church, been an official guest? What if this had taken place during his presidency? Still a no-show from the local ranking cleric of the Catholic Church?
Jan 18th 2014 new
(quote) Roystan-340472 said: What exactly is the issue that is aggravating the opposition:


that Cardinal O'Malley attended the special service ---- which he should not have?

or

that he attended the service as a participant rather than a spectator ---- which he should not have?

or

that he called down God's blessing on the water --- which he should not have?

or

that he submitted to the reaffirmation ritual at the hands of a woman instead of, say, the male United Methodist bishop --- which he should not have?

or

that he submitted to the ritual (which isn't a formal United Methodist sacrament as would be their holy communion, but a group cohesion-type thing, rather like renewing one's marriage vows in some kind of ceremony which is not, of course, repeating the sacrament of marriage).


Is an ecumenical ceremony to remember the common baptism a no-no? Should the Catholic Church have been unrepresented at that ceremony? Should it have been represented by a lower ranking cleric? What if that senior American still well-regarded by social and political conservatives, George W. Bush, a member of the United Methodist Church, been an official guest? What if this had taken place during his presidency? Still a no-show from the local ranking cleric of the Catholic Church?
Interestingly enough, the Church has, even after VII, warned caution against prayer in common. Such caution is present even in the Vatican II Decree on Ecumenism. David Gray posted an essay on this issue that might be useful here, and he does link to both Unitatis Redintegratio and the document published by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, entitled, Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism.

catholicstand.com

One point David Gray appears to be incorrect on is that the Methodists do not believe in the necessity of Baptism for salvation. Their texts on this make it appear that they do, though there are some slippery points in it. The Reaffirmation ceremony, is, as far as I know, particular to the Methodists.

However, his main point does stand, and that is whether the ecumenical act of prayer in common clearly witnesses to the truths of the Catholic faith or diminishes them is the key issue in participation in such services.


Jan 18th 2014 new
(quote) John-971967 said:

I think a number of gentlemen commenting on this thread are "indifferent" to the complete truth in regards to what is cited regarding Cardinal O'Malley's actions.

With all due respect to the Cardinals Office.It is a a stupid move.John Paul ll had a Hindu Priestess or something of the sort bless him too.Complete idiocy .That so called female minister is a nobody in the world of Authority from God.There is One Church.These preletes have been doing these stupid actions and have converted little to no one by these actions.They have a duty to preach Jesus Christ and the truth.Anything short of that is treason to the Faith.It shows how bad things have gotten,that Catholics would object to a story that criticizes this Cardinal.Catholics are by in large (like a frog in boiling water) cooked.Stupids cooked frogs.
Jan 19th 2014 new


Bernard, you start out by stating that the ACTION of a Cardinal is "stupid". But you end up rejecting all objective comments that demonstrate his actions are not a threat to the Catholic Faith. Thus, instead of learning some more about true Catholic teaching that you yourself apparently do not understand you instead choose to foist upon the rest of us a narrow minded approach that fits your scewed way of thinking and you conclude to use the story to criticize the individual (the Cardinal). And then you use the signature Bernard broom to slop a bunch of untraceable nonsense on Catholics who see the flaws in your presentation.

You have not addressed, nor has anyone debunked Gerald's points. Those points are relevant. You ignore them to your detriment.

Out of the blue, it is no longer just the Cardinal's actions that you dismiss; you project where few minds would go. You have indignance to the man already, for who knows what reasons. This is evident in that you then proceed to criticize the rest of us Catholics for being just as bad as he (note: no longer the actions, but the individuals) who dare to bring to your attention your nonsensical projections you unwittingly asssume to be facts.

Bernard look at your other three fingers: where are they pointing while you point the one at the Cadinal when saying "stupid"? It's just a question for you.

----

Bernard,

On a totally separate note, a month or so ago, you stated that you would not be renewing your CM membership after the end of this month, after being a member here since practically the inception of this site.

Is that still true?

If so, I do wish you the best, and sincerely hope that you decide to increase your Catholic understanding and adapt a more charitable attitude towards others. I know much was wrestled from Catholics in the Post Vatican II wake that took away our comfort zone. But such is life. We have to deal with what comes our way. I truly hope you find the means to find greater contentment while away from CM.

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