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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

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Mar 4th 2014 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: The story below:

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/03/Rorate-Exclusive.html

This ban was put in place by the newly appointed bishop of Ft. Worth against the saying of the TLM at Fisher Moore by their chaplains. Two of the chaplains were FSSP, and the third was a priest of the Fathers of Mercy, so let that put any ideas of SSPX involvement to rest.

According to the Canon Law Center, the bishop has "unlawfully restricted the rights of the faithful" by this act, which was given with no explanation whatsoever.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_GM2SKDGfe4/UxJZLqumTGI/AAAAAAAAA6c/RAOfP-H2WG8/s1600/img012.jpg

Allow me to also present the bishop's letter:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-I3Y7c__yHqM/UxH566h7oaI/AAAAAAAAA6M/bXUWcMh0pNc/s1600/img011.jpg



The Bishop acted in accordance with his responsibilities. Under Cannon Law and reiterated by Pope Benedict XVI in Summorum, a Bishop is solely responsible for how the Mass is celebrated publicly in his See.

A Pastor, under Summorum, can have a single Mass in the Extraordinary Form in his parish on Sunday, assuming the celebrant has been properly trained to offer Mass in the Extraordinary Form.

Aside from that, no one else may publicly celebrate the Extraordinary Form wihouit specific permission of the Bishop.

The BIshop is clear in his letter, he gave noone the necessary faculties to Celebrate the TLM at the College chapel.
Mar 4th 2014 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: A Pastor, under Summorum, can have a single Mass in the Extraordinary Form in his parish on Sunday, assuming the celebrant has been properly trained to offer Mass in the Extraordinary Form.

Art. 5 sec. 2 of Summorum also allows for celebration of the Extraordinary Form of the liturgy on "working days", with no stated limit on the number of such celebrations.

With regard to the bishop's authority: in the first sentence of the final paragraph of the letter to the bishops that accompanied Summorum, Pope Benedict states: "In conclusion, dear Brothers, I very much wish to stress that these new norms do not in any way lessen your authority and responsibility, either for the liturgy or for the pastoral care of your faithful. Each bishop is, in fact, the moderator of the liturgy in his own diocese."


Mar 4th 2014 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: Art. 5 sec. 2 of Summorum also allows for celebration of the Extraordinary Form of the liturgy on "working days", with no stated limit on the number of such celebrations.

With regard to the bishop's authority: in the first sentence of the final paragraph of the letter to the bishops that accompanied Summorum, Pope Benedict states: "In conclusion, dear Brothers, I very much wish to stress that these new norms do not in any way lessen your authority and responsibility, either for the liturgy or for the pastoral care of your faithful. Each bishop is, in fact, the moderator of the liturgy in his own diocese."


Sorry, Jerry, you have distorted the wording. It specifically states.

"In Masses celebrated without the people, each Catholic Priest of the Latin rite, whether secular or regular, may use the Roman Missal published by Bl. Pope John XXIII in 1962, or the Roma Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970, and may do so on any day with the exception of the Easter Tridium. For such celebrations, with either one Missal or the other, the priest has no need for permission from the Apostolic See or from his Ordinary."

The wording "... celebrated without the people ... ." clearly means non public masses. And it specifies no limit because normally a priest celebrating a private Mass is only going to say one Mass, not a multiplicity. Obviously, also, if a parish has more than one priests, each of them could say a private Mass and the only limit on the number of Masses would be the number of priests.

Ergo, the cited section, contrary to your first paragraph, does not allow an unlimited number of Public masses on any day without permission of the the Apostolic See or the ordinary of the diocese

Mar 4th 2014 new
As actual information, I add in the statement of the President of Fisher Moore College, given in the article below.

Please read carefully.

remnantnewspaper.com

Mar 4th 2014 new
I forgot to add Fisher Moore's statement on their chaplains since 2010. One of them was a priest at Holy Family in Dayton.

fishermore.edu

Mar 4th 2014 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: Sorry, Jerry, you have distorted the wording. It specifically states.

"In Masses celebrated without the people, each Catholic Priest of the Latin rite, whether secular or regular, may use the Roman Missal published by Bl. Pope John XXIII in 1962, or the Roma Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970, and may do so on any day with the exception of the Easter Tridium. For such celebrations, with either one Missal or the other, the priest has no need for permission from the Apostolic See or from his Ordinary."

The wording "... celebrated without the people ... ." clearly means non public masses. And it specifies no limit because normally a priest celebrating a private Mass is only going to say one Mass, not a multiplicity. Obviously, also, if a parish has more than one priests, each of them could say a private Mass and the only limit on the number of Masses would be the number of priests.

Ergo, the cited section, contrary to your first paragraph, does not allow an unlimited number of Public masses on any day without permission of the the Apostolic See or the ordinary of the diocese

Paul you are quoting from art. 2, not art. 5 that I cited. In fact, the portion I quoted was the first clause of the very same sentence that stipulates the limit of one celebration on Sundays (and feast days), so if you can somehow come up with a valid argument that "Masses celebrated without the people" applies to my reference, it applies to yours as well.

Mar 4th 2014 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: As actual information, I add in the statement of the President of Fisher Moore College, given in the article below.

Please read carefully.

http://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/323-it-is-what-it-is-fort-worth-diocese-clarifies-bishop-olson-s-ban-on-traditional-latin-mass-at-fisher-more-college

Every acount I have seen by those with some knowledge of the situation (as opposed to outside mercinaries looking for a fight (e.g., Rorate), the current president of Fisher-More is the root of the problem, so his statement must be taken cum (magnus) grano salis.

Mar 4th 2014 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: Sorry, Jerry, you have distorted the wording. It specifically states.

"In Masses celebrated without the people, each Catholic Priest of the Latin rite, whether secular or regular, may use the Roman Missal published by Bl. Pope John XXIII in 1962, or the Roma Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970, and may do so on any day with the exception of the Easter Tridium. For such celebrations, with either one Missal or the other, the priest has no need for permission from the Apostolic See or from his Ordinary."

The wording "... celebrated without the people ... ." clearly means non public masses. And it specifies no limit because normally a priest celebrating a private Mass is only going to say one Mass, not a multiplicity. Obviously, also, if a parish has more than one priests, each of them could say a private Mass and the only limit on the number of Masses would be the number of priests.

Ergo, the cited section, contrary to your first paragraph, does not allow an unlimited number of Public masses on any day without permission of the the Apostolic See or the ordinary of the diocese

Here is the relevant portion of the document (emphasis mine):

Art. 2. In Masses celebrated without the people, each Catholic priest of the Latin rite, whether secular or regular, may use the Roman Missal published by Blessed Pope John XXIII in 1962, or the Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970, and may do so on any day with the exception of the Easter Triduum. For such celebrations, with either one Missal or the other, the priest has no need for permission from the Apostolic See or from his ordinary.

Art. 3. Communities of institutes of consecrated life and of societies of apostolic life, of either pontifical or diocesan right, wishing to celebrate Mass in accordance with the edition of the Roman Missal promulgated in 1962, for conventual or "community" celebration in their oratories, may do so. If an individual community or an entire institute or society wishes to undertake such celebrations often, habitually or permanently, the decision must be taken by the superiors major, in accordance with the law and following their own specific decrees and statues.

Art. 4. Celebrations of Mass as mentioned above in art. 2 may -- observing all the norms of law -- also be attended by faithful who, of their own free will, ask to be admitted.

Art. 5. 1 In parishes, where there is a stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition, the pastor should willingly accept their requests to celebrate the Mass according to the rite of the Roman Missal published in 1962, and ensure that the welfare of these faithful harmonizes with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish, under the guidance of the bishop in accordance with Canon 392, avoiding discord and favoring the unity of the whole Church.

2 Celebration in accordance with the Missal of Blessed John XXIII may take place on working days; while on Sundays and feast days one such celebration may also be held.

www.zenit.org

Mar 4th 2014 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: Paul you are quoting from art. 2, not art. 5 that I cited. In fact, the portion I quoted was the first clause of the very same sentence that stipulates the limit of one celebration on Sundays (and feast days), so if you can somehow come up with a valid argument that "Masses celebrated without the people" applies to my reference, it applies to yours as well.

You are correct that I looked at the wrong Sec. 2.

However, you ignore the restriction found in the previous Art. 5. S 1 which states in no uncertain terms, "In... parishes, where there is a stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition ... under the guidance of the bishop in accordance with cannon 392, avoiding discord and favouring the unity of the whole Church."

Furthermore, he emphasis the fact that any priest celebrating the extraordinary form must be properly trained in the form.

Nevertheless, where the number of faithful in any given parish is too small to justify a public celebration, he directs Bishops to make it avaiblae within the diocese so that the limited number in a given parish can come together with other limited groups of people to celebrate the TLM.

My main problem with so many of the TLM is all crowd, is that they look on Summorum as having given carte blanche for the celebration of the TLM. It dfoes not do so. Although he made it easier for the TLM to be celebrated with less interference by Ordinaries, it is still fairly restrictive in that it draws a definitive line between private Masses and public celebrations. In the case of private masses, the only restriction is that the celbrant must be trained in the form. While public celebrations come under the jurisdiction of the local BIshop with some relatively minor leeway given to Pastors.

The whole tone of both Summorum and his letter to the Bishops releasing Summorum points to the fact, that there must be a sufficient number of faithful to justify public celebrations and that Pastors and Bishops in making greater use of the Extraordinary form must not cause discord.

That last, to not cause discord, as we see here too often, does in fact generate a lot of discord.
Mar 4th 2014 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: You are correct that I looked at the wrong Sec. 2.

However, you ignore the restriction found in the previous Art. 5. S 1
I did not ignore sec. 1; it isn't pertinent to the point I was making: that your original statement ("A Pastor, under Summorum, can have a single Mass in the Extraordinary Form in his parish on Sunday, assuming the celebrant has been properly trained to offer Mass in the Extraordinary Form.") implies, by omitting mention of any day other than Sunday, a restriction that does not exist. The very same sentence in SP that you were referencing explicitly states the same priest may offer Mass in the EF on workdays and feast days as well as Sundays. The same stipulations/restrictions from sec. 1 (and elsewhere in the document) apply to all of the above.

I completely agree with you about the widespread misinterpretation of SP by many of the self-identified traditionalists.





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