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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Mar 30th 2014 new
(quote) ED-20630 said: Judas was not created without free will.

Ed
No one said he was created without free will.
Mar 30th 2014 new
On April 27th 2014, Pope Francis will declare John XXIII and John Paul II saints. THAT will be infallible.
Mar 30th 2014 new
(quote) Greg-902815 said: No one said he was created without free will.
Well then...

If Judas had a free will (which he did), then I believe it would be inaccurate to say that.... "Judas was chosen by God to fulfill scripture about the Son of Man being betrayed." (as you wrote). To me that implies that Judas had no choice in the matter (but to betray Christ).

Ed
Mar 30th 2014 new
(quote) ED-20630 said: Well then...

If Judas had a free will (which he did), then I believe it would be inaccurate to say that.... "Judas was chosen by God to fulfill scripture about the Son of Man being betrayed." (as you wrote). To me that implies that Judas had no choice in the matter (but to betray Christ).

Ed
That's what you take from it.
Mar 30th 2014 new
(quote) Greg-902815 said: On April 27th 2014, Pope Francis will declare John XXIII and John Paul II saints. THAT will be infallible.
John XXIII and John Paul II will not BECOME saints on that particular day. They are already saints. That day will be the day that the Church formally recognizes (to the world) that they are already saints. If they were not already saints, then this would imply that the Catholic Church (or the pope) can somehow determine how many days, weeks or years someone is spending in Purgatory.... which it cannot.

Ed
Mar 30th 2014 new
(quote) ED-20630 said: John XXIII and John Paul II will not BECOME saints on that particular day. They are already saints. That day will be the day that the Church formally recognizes (to the world) that they are already saints. If they were not already saints, then this would imply that the Catholic Church (or the pope) can somehow determine how many days, weeks or years someone is spending in Purgatory.... which it cannot.

Ed
So then, according to you, what is the purpose of canonization? I repeat once more: on April 27th 2014 they will be formally declare saints; they will be canonized. Their sainthood will infallibly be declared on that day. Beatification is not the same is canonization.
Mar 30th 2014 new
(quote) Greg-902815 said: Simply pointing out events out is not denying papal infallibility. The dogma is specifically: "The pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra". Questioning why someone would kiss the quran is not denying papal infallibility.



The article ceased to be "thought provoking" (as to whether JPII is worthy of canonization) the moment that Pope Francis announced that JPII's canonization was scheduled to occur on a particular date. It is a settled matter. It is not even a remote possibility that this decision would be reversed. I dare say that I think it would be a impossible task to find, in the 2000 year history of the Church, where such a decision has ever been reversed.


To your point.... "Questioning why someone would kiss the quran is not denying papal infallibility."

My response.... The whole point of questioning why JPII would or would not kiss a quran is (for the author) to point out a proposed reason why JPII is not worthy of being canonized..... As of the announcement of the canonization date, this is a mute point.


Ed
Mar 30th 2014 new
(quote) Greg-902815 said: So then, according to you, what is the purpose of canonization? I repeat once more: on April 27th 2014 they will be formally declare saints; they will be canonized. Their sainthood will infallibly be declared on that day. Beatification is not the same is canonization.
As I previously wrote.....

That day will be the day that the Church formally recognizes (to the world) that they are already saints. They do not BECOME saints at the moment that they are canonized as saints. They are saints already, before they are formally recognized as such. After they are canonized, the whole world will know that the Catholic Church recognizes them as the saints that they already are.

Another way to look at it.... Becoming a saint is NOT the same as being ordained as a priest. A priest an ordinary person or a deacon until the moment he is ordained a priest. Not so with a saint. In fact nearly all saints are NEVER formally recognized as saints by the Church. Anyone in Heaven IS as saint.


Ed
Mar 30th 2014 new
(quote) ED-20630 said: The article ceased to be "thought provoking" (as to whether JPII is worthy of canonization) the moment that Pope Francis announced that JPII's canonization was scheduled to occur on a particular date. It is a settled matter. It is not even a remote possibility that this decision would be reversed. I dare say that I think it would be a impossible task to find, in the 2000 year history of the Church, where such a decision has ever been reversed.


To your point.... "Questioning why someone would kiss the quran is not denying papal infallibility."

My response.... The whole point of questioning why JPII would or would not kiss a quran is (for the author) to point out a proposed reason why JPII is not worthy of being canonized..... As of the announcement of the canonization date, this is a mute point.


Ed
No. The techinical difference IS a big deal. Beatification means that public veneration is now permitted; canonization means that saint status is dogma. Stating that because it is near ergo it's happened, is the same thing as rounding of numbers.

Mar 30th 2014 new
(quote) Greg-902815 said: No. The techinical difference IS a big deal. Beatification means that public veneration is now permitted; canonization means that saint status is dogma. Stating that because it is near ergo it's happened, is the same thing as rounding of numbers.

Of course, canonization is a big deal. I did not state that it was not. You are making up things if you believe that I am rounding numbers (as you state). It would not be accurate to say that JPII was NOT a saint today but will be a saint in a few weeks.... That would imply that he has a few weeks to "finish up" in Purgatory (yet). He will be recognized as the saint that he already is .... in a few short weeks. That IS a big deal.

The committee and the pope cannot come to the conclusion that JPII will have finished up his final weeks in Purgatory in a few weeks. That doesn't even make sense. They have determined that he already meets the thresh-hold of sainthood, which is why they scheduled the canonization. I give up on explaining this further.

Ed
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