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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Mar 30th 2014 new
I read traditional catholic websites and naturally I'm curious about what I read. Personally, I believe John Paul II displayed heroic virtue through his fight against communism and based on that by itself, he should be canonized. The people at remnant, as far as I can tell, have not violated Catholic dogma. If I'm wrong then I welcome correction.
Mar 30th 2014 new
(quote) Chelsea-743484 said: Greg - where in the world did you come up with this notion of canonization? Canonization literally means adding a person's name to the "canon" (universally accepted register) of saints. It's not synonymous with dogmatizing in anything that I've EVER come across (in fact, the formula fails to meet the requirements for an ex cathedra teaching, as well).

If you have further information which demonstrates your position, I'd love to see it. Thanks.
So canonization is NOT infallible? Please inform me here..thanks.
Mar 30th 2014 new
I sent my response to your email, Greg.
Mar 30th 2014 new
(quote) Chelsea-743484 said: I sent my response to your email, Greg.
Will you post this? I have been curious about this.
Mar 30th 2014 new
(quote) Chelsea-743484 said: I actually find his long-standing approbation and proximity to Marcel Maciel much more of a testimony against his possible sanctity than anything else.

Plus, the current canonization formula does not meet the requirements that the First Vatican Council laid out for ex cathedra teachings.
The formula for ex cathedra teachings, stripped to its essence, merely requires the Pope to invoke that authority when making a pronouncement on faith and morals. The formal declaration of someone as a saint, is a matter of faith and morals. What process exists for arriving at the decision to Canonize someone has no beating on the infallibility of the pronouncement when it is made.

In the case of JPII, Pope Frances short circuited the Canonization process and decided to go ahead with the Canonization before the second miracle, normally required, was certified. I believe it has since been certified.
Mar 30th 2014 new
No I did not insist on that. What I said was that I can see why there is concern about kissing the quran.
Mar 30th 2014 new
(quote) Meg-920823 said: Will you post this? I have been curious about this.
Sure, Meg. Here's the body of my email to Greg:

The Pope can only define dogma within a limited realm. The First Vatican Council teaches us the limits:

"Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the christian faith, to the glory of God our saviour, for the exaltation of the catholic religion and for the salvation of the christian people, with the approval of the sacred council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable. So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema."

This formula fails to meet the requirements above:

The Pope then pronounces the following or a similar formula: "To the honour of the holy and undivided Trinity, for the exaltation of the Catholic faith and the increase of the Christian religion, by the authority of Our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and of Ourselves, after mature deliberation and many petitions for the Divine assistance, with the advice of Our venerable brethren the cardinals, patriarchs, archbishops and bishops at present in Rome, We decree and define that N. is a saint, and We insert his name upon the catalogue of saints, commanding that his memory be annually venerated by the Universal Church upon the day of the month. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost."


We're not bound to hold such a person is a saint by faith by the formula, only by religious submission to venerate his memory annually.

Mar 30th 2014 new
Thanks, Chelsea.
Mar 30th 2014 new
(quote) Chelsea-743484 said: Actually, Ed, the decision can be reversed. Pope Paul VI's possible beatification came up years ago, but then was taken off the table due to the great body of evidence of things contrary to heroic Christian virtue in his pontificate.

I don't believe that Pope John Paul II's canonization will be taken off the table, though. I'm not in the least saying that I don't hope that he's enjoying the beatific vision right now, but his pontificate was not really one that was demonstrative of heroic Christian virtue, either. He was merely popular and well-liked by the secular media.
I disagree that the (saint) decision can be reversed. The decision has already been made. I would argue that the pope (any pope) cannot de-saint (if that is a word) a saint. I am not certain of the exact situation of Pope Paul VI's beatification, but you wrote yourself that it was a "possible beatification", indicating that no final decision had been made. So if no decision has been made, then of course consideration could be taken off the table. One could definitely prove me wrong simply by supplying the name of a previously-declared saint which is no longer a saint. I believe that will be an impossible effort.

Concerning your last statement....
"...., but his [JPII's] pontificate was not really one that was demonstrative of heroic Christian virtue, either. He was merely popular and well-liked by the secular media."

My comment: I completely and vigorously disagree, but to each his/her own. It seems (to me) as if your mind is made up, and I do not intend to take on the task of trying to change it.

Mar 30th 2014 new
(quote) Chelsea-743484 said: A person cannot come to the conclusion that the Holy Father is having recourse to his infallible magisterium based upon the current canonization formula.
So once again, it appears that you are suggesting that Pope Francis and the committee for the sainthood of JPII might well be wrong, but that you are certainly right. This really gets old very quickly.

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