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Discussion related to living as a Catholic in the single state of life. As long as a topic is being discussed from the perspective of a single Catholic then it will be on-topic.

Tobias and Sarah's story is from the Book of Tobit, and his journey is guided by Saint Raphael.
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Apr 7th 2014 new
(quote) Victor-544727 said: That would depend on which metrics you're drawing your comparison from. In comparison to a civil divorce, you'd be right. Annulments are much more difficult to get. However, in comparison to the standards by which annulments were granted pre-Vatican II, getting an annulment today is as easy as getting a judge to sign-off on a no-fault divorce agreement.

The grounds for annulments have been so broadened since 1962 that virtually anyone who applies for one will be granted it. Taking nothing away from those whose marriages were TRULY invalid, but an annulment today is barely more than a Catholic divorce because the Church has allowed the argument that the breakdown of the marriage after the vows were exchanged to be redefined as a condition that existed before the marriage took place, thus satisfying the requirement that states that an impediment must exist at the time the marriage takes place for the marriage to be deemed invalid. By today's standards, practically anything that goes wrong in a marriage at any time can be defined as a condition that existed but was unknown at the time the marriage took place. Many Catholics, in their desire to separate from their (perhaps) abusive and/or unhealthy marriages, have bought and continue to buy into this false argument.

This is yet another result of yet another case of extreme recklessness on the part of the Bishops, who were more concerned with maintaining a declining congregation than accounting for the unintended consequences that would come and have come a thousandfold as a result of their shortsightedness. Now, while they're STILL trying to maintain the same declining congregation that they were trying to maintain 50 years ago, they're trying to undo the un-reversible damage that has been done due to their previous decisions.



Again I guess Victor we will have to agree to disagree. Have you had been through the annulment process Victor for which you speak???? Annulments are certainly not as easy as signing off on a divorce. Having been through a divorce before my annulment my divorce was not easy. It took me 2 years to receive it. Also it took me another year after my divorce to be able to emotionally consider an annulment. It took another 18 months to receive my annulment. There are rules followed in applying and receiving an annulment. It is certainly not easy to get one and the church does not grant an annulment without good reason. I know from my experience. Annulments are a serious matter. Do you ever hear of the people who apply for an annulment and are refused???? No you do not. Soooo perhaps it seems as though many receive one easily because the ones who do not receive one do not talk about it and keep it to themselves. Regardless I do not share your opinion and so we will leave it at that. We have differing opinions and we will just have to agree to disagree.
Apr 7th 2014 new
One lady I know was turned down twice, by two different Diocese.
Apr 7th 2014 new
(quote) Meg-920823 said: One lady I know was turned down twice, by two different Diocese.
Meg I also personally know of those turned down for an annulment and I also know of those who looked into receiving an annulment and thought there were too many rules and steps to receive one and decided not to bother to follow through with an annulment. They thought there was too much to do to receive one.
Apr 7th 2014 new
(quote) Kathy-730470 said: Have you had been through the annulment process Victor for which you speak???? 
No, but I also don't live in Canada nor is my archdiocese under the guidance of the Canadian bishops, as you do and your archdiocese is. I don't seem to recall making any mention of the Canadian church or bishops anywhere in any of my comments.



theheart
Apr 7th 2014 new
(quote) Victor-544727 said: - The U.S. congregation accounts for only 6% of the entire global Church, yet account for 60% of all annulments. Africa, who accounts for 14% of the total Catholic population, account for only 0.9% of all annulments.

Numbers, although very inconvenient for some, don't lie.


"Numbers, although very inconvenient for some, don't lie."
But when presented in a convenient way they can be misunderstood to mean things they necessarily do not.

Without further numbers - the numbers quoted are meaningless in that they compare apples and oranges it seems.

"The U.S. congregation accounts for only 6% of the entire global Church, yet account for 60% of all annulments"
This 6% is comparing ALL congregants - married and unmarried, where as the 60% applies only to ones that were once married.
"Africa, who accounts for 14% of the total Catholic population, account for only 0.9% of all annulments."
Similar to the comparison above
Nowhere do I see a comparison of the populations of the number of people, nor the the number of married people in any of the countries referenced. Without such numbers - the numbers supplied do not stand on their own merit to prove anything other than what is read into it if I am not mistaken.

And please note as always, I have been known on MANY occasions to be wrong, and that tally may climb as of this response.




Apr 7th 2014 new
(quote) Victor-544727 said: No, but I also don't live in Canada nor is my archdiocese under the guidance of the Canadian bishops, as you do and your archdiocese is. I don't seem to recall making any mention of the Canadian church or bishops anywhere in any of my comments.



I am not in Canada and neither are those I know who were denied.
Apr 7th 2014 new
To clarify, if there are a million Catholic Africans, of which only two are married and two were no longer due to an annulment, the percentage for married Africans would be roughly 50%, but an immeasurably small percentage for the Catholic congregation.

I am not implying the above - only showing how numbers/statistics often prove nothing without all of the information.
Apr 7th 2014 new

Amen, Meg. Good advice.

Apr 7th 2014 new
(quote) Victor-544727 said: The U.S. Church approves close to 90% of all annulment petitions. Of course some are denied. That doesn't change facts. Even civil courts deny some petitions.




What is the source of this statistic?

Apr 7th 2014 new
(quote) Victor-544727 said: Just to provide a little statistical evidence to my argument:

- In 1960, the U.S. Church granted only 300 total annulments. In 2007 alone, the U.S. church granted 35,009 annulments - a full 60% of the 58,322 total annulments granted by the Church worldwide that same year. The second most number of annulments granted in any single country that year was the 2,625 granted to Italian marrieds.

- The U.S. congregation accounts for only 6% of the entire global Church, yet account for 60% of all annulments. Africa, who accounts for 14% of the total Catholic population, account for only 0.9% of all annulments.

Numbers, although very inconvenient for some, don't lie.


Same question: what is the source of these statistics?

As for numbers not lying: while accurate numbers don't lie, they can be misrepresented and/or misinterpreted. Then there is also the possibility they are not accurate.

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