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This room is for general discussion that doesn't specifically fit into one of the other CatholicMatch rooms. Topics should not be overly serious as this is to be more of a "cafe setting."

Saint Peter's Square was created so that more people could be in the presence of the Pope and was named after Saint Peter, one of Jesus's apostles.
Learn More: Saint Peter

Jun 21st 2014 new
(quote) Jim-875732 said: This is "the small stuff." Don't sweat it, man.
Honest, Jim, the veins are not standing out on my forehead over this one. I thought it a newsworthy item worth reproducing, that's all. Either the Presbyterians are crazier than a box of frogs, or I am. laughing
Jun 21st 2014 new
(quote) Jim-875732 said: This is "the small stuff." Don't sweat it, man.

You may not think so later when the US follows the European pattern of designating approved, popular churches with sanitized adaptations of the more disliked among Christ's sayings (like our liberalized Mainline churches), and enacting legal penalties against followers of authentic Christian religion. Europe is often a bellwether for changes which occur in America albeit at a much more gradual pace. What we're seeing in Europe is persecution: church burnings, partisan membership excluding opponents of same sex marriage, businesses like B&Bs confiscated from Christians, and all sorts of other outrages.

Just because the connections between events aren't always apparent to everyone, that doesn't make them trivial.

Jun 21st 2014 new
(quote) Devan-877827 said:

The Presbyterian Church and most other mainline Protestant denominations (United Methodist Church and Episcopal Church being a couple others) are desperately hemorrhaging numbers of congregants and splitting down the middle at a greater clip than the Catholic Church (for all the progressive vitriol about rigidity) sheds its own members, and so they put gay marriage up for a vote. What's next, baptism? Divorce?

For all their sanctimonious Bible baiting, and questions of "where's that in the Bible?" mainline Protestants have committed one of the most despicable sins against Holy Spirit. They've fractured the Body of Christ, continuing a process set in motion by Martin Luther. If the Presbyterian Church is anything like the Episcopal Church, this development will only worsen the shedding numbers.

So, in a way, your statement about inclusivity is actually ironic. For all its liberal inclusivity, the pie is actually shrinking.

Your point is what? Didn't we just discuss on another thread recently that upwards of 70% of self-proclaimed Catholics say they don't believe in Christ's presence in the Eucharist? (Yes, we did) So we can include bunches of these people in our unshrunken pie. Yay, Church. For all its conservative lack of inclusivity relatively few in the pews believe what It's teaching. But we'll count them anyway and that means.................. what? Ka-ching?

Jun 21st 2014 new
(quote) Devan-877827 said:

You may not think so later when the US follows the European pattern of designating approved, popular churches with sanitized adaptations of the more disliked among Christ's sayings (like our liberalized Mainline churches), and enacting legal penalties against followers of authentic Christian religion. Europe is often a bellwether for changes which occur in America albeit at a much more gradual pace. What we're seeing in Europe is persecution: church burnings, partisan membership excluding opponents of same sex marriage, businesses like B&Bs confiscated from Christians, and all sorts of other outrages.

Just because the connections between events aren't always apparent to everyone, that doesn't make them trivial.

I hope this isn't another nose-in-the-tent argument (like legalization of pot leads to heroin use).
Jun 21st 2014 new
(quote) Carol-1007500 said: Agreed, organized religion in the US is at an all time low. And to the extent that religion is an industry - no congregants, no church, no mission. Christianity is at an impasse. From an evolutionary theology perspective, a more unifying approach is needed to survive.
The purpose of religion is to bring people closer to God, not to grow in size for the sake of growth. In fact, Adding members that reject the teachings of the church causes far greater problems than it solves.

In his last homily before being elected Pope, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger made the following comments:

How many winds of doctrine have we known in recent decades, how many ideological currents, how many ways of thinking. The small boat of the thought of many Christians has often been tossed about by these waves - flung from one extreme to another: from Marxism to liberalism, even to libertinism; from collectivism to radical individualism; from atheism to a vague religious mysticism; from agnosticism to syncretism and so forth. Every day new sects spring up, and what St Paul says about human deception and the trickery that strives to entice people into error (cf. Eph 4: 14) comes true.

Today, having a clear faith based on the Creed of the Church is often labeled as fundamentalism. Whereas relativism, that is, letting oneself be "tossed here and there, carried about by every wind of doctrine", seems the only attitude that can cope with modern times. We are building a dictatorship of relativism that does not recognize anything as definitive and whose ultimate goal consists solely of one's own ego and desires.

We, however, have a different goal: the Son of God, the true man. He is the measure of true humanism. An "adult" faith is not a faith that follows the trends of fashion and the latest novelty; a mature adult faith is deeply rooted in friendship with Christ. It is this friendship that opens us up to all that is good and gives us a criterion by which to distinguish the true from the false, and deceipt from truth.

We must develop this adult faith; we must guide the flock of Christ to this faith. And it is this faith - only faith - that creates unity and is fulfilled in love.

On this theme, St Paul offers us as a fundamental formula for Christian existence some beautiful words, in contrast to the continual vicissitudes of those who, like children, are tossed about by the waves: make truth in love. Truth and love coincide in Christ. To the extent that we draw close to Christ, in our own lives too, truth and love are blended. Love without truth would be blind; truth without love would be like "a clanging cymbal" (I Cor 13: 1).

www.vatican.va






Jun 21st 2014 new
Also in Germany churches are taxed and a Catholic can be excommunicated fro non payment.see link.


www.bbc.com
Jun 21st 2014 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: The purpose of religion is to bring people closer to God, not to grow in size for the sake of growth. In fact, Adding members that reject the teachings of the church causes far greater problems than it solves.

In his last homily before being elected Pope, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger made the following comments:

How many winds of doctrine have we known in recent decades, how many ideological currents, how many ways of thinking. The small boat of the thought of many Christians has often been tossed about by these waves - flung from one extreme to another: from Marxism to liberalism, even to libertinism; from collectivism to radical individualism; from atheism to a vague religious mysticism; from agnosticism to syncretism and so forth. Every day new sects spring up, and what St Paul says about human deception and the trickery that strives to entice people into error (cf. Eph 4: 14) comes true.

Today, having a clear faith based on the Creed of the Church is often labeled as fundamentalism. Whereas relativism, that is, letting oneself be "tossed here and there, carried about by every wind of doctrine", seems the only attitude that can cope with modern times. We are building a dictatorship of relativism that does not recognize anything as definitive and whose ultimate goal consists solely of one's own ego and desires.

We, however, have a different goal: the Son of God, the true man. He is the measure of true humanism. An "adult" faith is not a faith that follows the trends of fashion and the latest novelty; a mature adult faith is deeply rooted in friendship with Christ. It is this friendship that opens us up to all that is good and gives us a criterion by which to distinguish the true from the false, and deceipt from truth.

We must develop this adult faith; we must guide the flock of Christ to this faith. And it is this faith - only faith - that creates unity and is fulfilled in love.

On this theme, St Paul offers us as a fundamental formula for Christian existence some beautiful words, in contrast to the continual vicissitudes of those who, like children, are tossed about by the waves: make truth in love. Truth and love coincide in Christ. To the extent that we draw close to Christ, in our own lives too, truth and love are blended. Love without truth would be blind; truth without love would be like "a clanging cymbal" (I Cor 13: 1).

http://www.vatican.va/gpII/documents/homily-pro-eligendo-pontifice_20050418_en.html






ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Boring guy.
Jun 21st 2014 new
(quote) Carol-1007500 said: I am well aware of the Catholic position on same sex marriages. If the Presbyterian Church has a different interpretation, that is their right. If they agreed with Catholic views, they would embrace Catholicism.
They profess to be followers of Jesus Christ, yet the adopt policies that accept one of the worst of sins. What is the source of this claimed right to hypocrisy? (Note that I am referring to the policy of the organization, not to the sins of the individual members.)

Jun 21st 2014 new
(quote) Charles-976166 said: Also in Germany churches are taxed and a Catholic can be excommunicated fro non payment.see link.


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-19699581

Very interesting, Charles. I knew Europe was hemorrhaging Catholics, too; but I didn't know about the tax in Germany - almost sounds medieval.


Jun 21st 2014 new
(quote) Jim-875732 said: Your point is what? Didn't we just discuss on another thread recently that upwards of 70% of self-proclaimed Catholics say they don't believe in Christ's presence in the Eucharist? (Yes, we did) So we can include bunches of these people in our unshrunken pie. Yay, Church. For all its conservative lack of inclusivity relatively few in the pews believe what It's teaching. But we'll count them anyway and that means.................. what? Ka-ching?

Well the reality is probably somewhat more varied than you're suggesting. There's that old adage that "hypocrisy is the tribute paid by vice to virtue." I think, quite frankly, that a lot of dissent with the Catholic Church is HUBRIS.

Followers of wishy washy mainline Protestantism are apparently so repulsed by the sanitized, painfully inoffensive platitudes that they're hearing in Sunday services that it quite frankly sends them running out the door, looking one supposes, for more authentically Christian teaching. Whereas many liberal Catholics can't seem to take that next logical step and cut the cord with the Catholic Church. One perceives that if they really held as authentic their dissent with the Church, they should be so disgusted by Her as to want little or nothing to do with Her.

How can one say the Catholic Church is a sexist, misogynist reactionary old boys club & pedophiliac ring (all manner of venomous libels are hurled at Her), and yet, knock elbows and cut in front of other Mass goers on Sunday in the procession to the Sacrament of COMMUNION (as in, one who is in communion with the Church)?

Dissenting 'Catholics' like yourself talk a big game about not believing in the Real Presence of the Eucharist, but at the same time seem to make the biggest fuss when the Church denies Communion to this or that individual. If the Eucharist isn't the Body of Christ (God forbid), but it's just a wafer, then what's all this progressive hullaballoo about denying communion to remarried divorcees and pro-choice politicians?

One perceives that if "actions speak louder than words," and "hypocrisy is the tribute paid by vice to virtue," dissenting Catholics probably don't take their dissenting beliefs as seriously as they might claim when the pollsters come knocking at their doors. As uncomfortable as it is for dissenters to acknowledge, the Church is still a symbol of moral authority, even to them.

Don't get me wrong, dissenters are all still excommunicated, whatever their reasons for dissenting.

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